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Author Topic: VERY DISTURBING
atararox

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Post VERY DISTURBING
on: March 1, 2013, 1:17 PM

anyone listen to inshidduchim live wednesday night?
i got to listen in in the last half hour and what i heard was VERY DISTURBING!
basically it was clearly stated by the speaker/rabbi that "a girl whose parents dont have money to support long term, and she is looking to marry a boy who will learn 5+ years, is being unrelaistic and creating her own shidduch crisis "
fine...he then went on to say that a boy who wants to learn for 5+ years has every right and SHOULD look for money so that he can learn in comfort.
he then went on to say that shadchanim will not redt a girl whose parents are not wealthy, to a boy who is serious about his learning.
i am baffled and highly disturbed.
this is not personal for me because i am not looking for a long term learner and my parents are able to support short term so i am speaking objectively.
is this what this world has come to?????
what ever happend to the real kollel lifestyle?
whatever happened to learning lishmah?
our gedolim in the past certainly did not "marry Money" so that they can learn in comfort.
and these our supposed to be our generations 'top boys" and future roshei yeshivos.
unreal!!!!!
my next question is - ive been reading what you guys have been posting what ur looking for and it seems that many of you want boys are going to learn as long as possible yet not be into gashmyus and live simply etc...with the above statements my question to you all is - Do these boys exhist? or perhaps as accoring to the rabbi, are you all being unrealistic and creating your own shidduch crisis??? (sarcastic)
please if someone can clarify perhaps i misunderstood (i dont think i did, it seemed pretty clear)
would luv to hear your takes on this new mindset of learning boys being entitled to money!

thinkingBY-
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Post Re: VERY DISTURBING
on: March 1, 2013, 1:37 PM

Agreed, it is disturbing. These kollel guys are not being mesiras nefesh to learn like the old days, they are simply on paid vacation. They rely on their parents to pay most of their expenses. How this works, well, it's the parents who are being mesiras nefesh. I just don't understand how it goes when the father himself is still in kollel or in chinuch. I'm not downplaying the chashivus of these guy's learning, ch"vsh, but I think it's crazy how rebbeim are inculcating their bachurim with an entitlement for monetary support. Didn't you know it's an auction...guy goes to the highest bidder!

atararox

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Post Re: VERY DISTURBING
on: March 1, 2013, 1:51 PM

so so so sad 🙁 i mean i knew this was the underlying mindset of lakewood but this is the first ive heard a rabbi so blatantly state it. and now what im seeing is that even the average guys who are just in yeshiva so they dont get labeled as a working guy, are also feeling this sense of entitlement to money...so now any girl who wants a learning guy needs to be able to support.
the only way to get through this without having a nervous breakdown is to belive that there is a g-d running the world. after i heard this i was so let down i ran today and bought r' shimshon pincus english sefer on emunah.
i will read it over shabbos. hope it helps.
we need mashiach!

Bracha613

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Post Re: VERY DISTURBING
on: March 1, 2013, 2:39 PM

Atara I also listened to the show and I don't think he said what you said he said. I think his point was that you have to be realistic and you should not rely on Bitachon for something unrealistic. I do believe he was misinformed in thinking that it's not possible for a boy to learn in kollel without support. My sister supports her husband with a fine job without any support. He did mention specifally to a caller that it's a disservice to their kids when parents give too much money to their kids.
I hope this helps your Shabbos! 😛

Moon

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Post Re: VERY DISTURBING
on: March 1, 2013, 2:44 PM

How exactly do you listen to inshidduchim live? I'm not sure how to get to that.... Can anyone help?

atararox

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Post Re: VERY DISTURBING
on: March 1, 2013, 2:50 PM

thanks bracha!! although i did not hear him mention anything about bitachon at all. but he did say those words that a girl who does not have money should not be looking for a learner of 5+ years. that he did say 100 percent.
yes he is clearly misinformed that its not possible to live without major money.
but what i took from it is that a good serious yeshiva boy will not be willing to give up lifes small luxuries for the sake of learning and not only is it ok but its expected.
if he said anything about Bitachon please please inform me. thanks.(bracha at the end of his talk the israeli guy got on and argued exactly what im saying. that he blieves its impt to learn lishma like previous gedolim - thats how i know forsure i wasnt making things up in my head)

dancer90

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Post Re: VERY DISTURBING
on: March 1, 2013, 3:00 PM

i was just speaking to my sister in law about this and she said the other day my brother came home from a shiur by a lakewood rebbe and this is exaclty what he was saying. that boys who want to sit and learn for a number of years need to look for money and girls have to understand that if they dont have it then they can not expect a top boy to go out with them. hashem yirachem. what are the benos yisrael being turned into.valued by how much money their parents have ....and then the middos and personality on the side. 🙁 🙁 🙁

feigy123

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Post Re: VERY DISTURBING
on: March 1, 2013, 3:14 PM

I'm sorry folks, but this thread is ridiculous. It costs a certain amount to live--no matter which lifestyle you are looking for. If a boy wants to learn, he has every right to look for a wife who will enable him to learn.

This idea that he can just live "the old style kollel lifestyle" is mishegas; no more and no less. You cannot find a 1 room apt in Lakewood without running water, because it is illegal, and you need an apartment. That is the largest cost of being married. Sure, you can eat cheaper food, and not have a cellphone, but a girl whose parents cannot support and doesn't have the ability to work, will not be able to support even enough for that cheaper lifestyle.

Also, the whole issue is irrelevant, because there is no girl who wants to "live the old stye kollel lifestyle" with these guys anyway. If I was a boy, and in that situation, and being pressured to go out with such a girl, I would ask on the first date if she was ok with having no sheitels or jewelry ever, and one new outfit per year. And having the wedding in the shul on friday afternoon with a shabbos meal at her parents house for the wedding meal. When she agrees to that, I'll know we can pull it off.

Not everyone gets to marry a learning boy; not every boy gets to be a learning boy. Deal with it.

Bracha613

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Post Re: VERY DISTURBING
on: March 1, 2013, 3:17 PM

Moon - I think it's on Wednesday nights from 8 to 9. The link is usually posted on inshidduchim.com.
Atara - What happened was, was he was interviewing someone (I forgot his name) and the person said that you can't rely on Bitachon if you don't have a possible plan. He was just taking that idea further. He mentioned that his married daughters live in E.Y. so it could be that's where he was getting his info from not realizing that in America it may be different.
Have a great shabbos! 😛

Moon

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Post Re: VERY DISTURBING
on: March 1, 2013, 3:24 PM

I've been out with boys who wanted to learn long term and wanted to know if I would be okay with a lifestyle that did not allow for extra expenses... these boys, by the way, never asked about how much money my parents have. It was agreed that the wives of these boys would work so that they could stay in learning for as long as possible. I think that the boys were more Moser Nefesh that I could ever be about living a lifestyle with very little money! So I don't think that ALL boys who want to be in learning for a long time expect to live a lifestyle with every luxury in the world.... (but this is just my experience)

thinkingBY-
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Post Re: VERY DISTURBING
on: March 1, 2013, 3:42 PM

Quote from feigy123 on March 1, 2013, 3:14 PM
I'm sorry folks, but this thread is ridiculous. It costs a certain amount to live--no matter which lifestyle you are looking for. If a boy wants to learn, he has every right to look for a wife who will enable him to learn.

This idea that he can just live "the old style kollel lifestyle" is mishegas; no more and no less. You cannot find a 1 room apt in Lakewood without running water, because it is illegal, and you need an apartment. That is the largest cost of being married. Sure, you can eat cheaper food, and not have a cellphone, but a girl whose parents cannot support and doesn't have the ability to work, will not be able to support even enough for that cheaper lifestyle.

Also, the whole issue is irrelevant, because there is no girl who wants to "live the old stye kollel lifestyle" with these guys anyway. If I was a boy, and in that situation, and being pressured to go out with such a girl, I would ask on the first date if she was ok with having no sheitels or jewelry ever, and one new outfit per year. And having the wedding in the shul on friday afternoon with a shabbos meal at her parents house for the wedding meal. When she agrees to that, I'll know we can pull it off.

Not everyone gets to marry a learning boy; not every boy gets to be a learning boy. Deal with it.

Don't downplay the whole issue. It's a real problem that boys are being told to look for girls whose parents are offering the most money. Nowadays many boys are looking for a girl (or rather the parents of a girl) who can support a lavish lifestyle like he is used to. Obviously the couple may need help in the beginning no matter their lifestyle if the guy isn't working, but yes, people can survive (albeit frugally and they may have to live somewhere where the cost of living is cheaper) on one income with a kollel stipend. As their family grows, expenses skyrocket and then they have to make a choice of what their next step will be. If her parents can't bear the brunt of the support, can't his parents chip in? What about being adults and figuring out how they themselves can support their family and not always rely on Mommy and Tatty? There should be joint responsibility, not just relying on her parents to pay all the bills. If someone really wants to marry a learning boy and her parents can't support them, no, she doesn't have to "deal with it," she can find a way to make it happen. Why do people feel entitled for their parents, or rather parents-in-law, to support them? If you're old enough to get married, you should be old enough to pay your own bills!

dancer90

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Post Re: VERY DISTURBING
on: March 1, 2013, 3:43 PM

feigy123 - its not so much that boys are looking for a steady income to pay for rent food and necesseties.
what atara is saying is that these rabanim are expressing that boys are entitled to look for major money. like they want inlaws who will support a substantial amount. my brother is a supporter of BMG so hes in with all this hock and this is the direction boys are being led. thier not talking about being supported with basic necessities. and this thread is not rediculous at all.
alot of girls are frustrated about this. if it is not an issue for you then you dont have to respond.
and moon - im glad to hear there are still sincere boys left that youve been dating. but from experience thos are really really yeshivish boys. (dont know you so cant tell forsure)
either way this is an issue at hand.

dancer90

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Post Re: VERY DISTURBING
on: March 1, 2013, 3:45 PM

well said thinkingbygirl! could not have said it better myself! its a real issue and its ok to vent about it!

dancer90

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Post Re: VERY DISTURBING
on: March 1, 2013, 3:50 PM

and feigy123 - yes every girl who is deserving of a learning boy should get to marry one no matter how much money her parents have. there are ways to make it work. it has been done before and its still possible.
i cant believe you can say such a thing! but Hashem runs the world and everyone gets what they deserve so we can take comfort in that!

feigy123

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Post Re: VERY DISTURBING
on: March 1, 2013, 4:02 PM

thinkingbygirl: Your argument is indeed an indictment of the kollel system--that is, of people wanting to stay in kollel long term. But it is just that and no more. It does cost a lot to stay in kollel long term, and it requires either that the wife have a really good job with advanced education, or, that either or both sets of parents contribute substantial funds.

You can argue against that system; you might be right that it is not appropriate for a couple to want to learn and be supported by others. But that is not the relevant question, since in our scenario the girl also wants to learn long term and is being unrealistic. At least the boy thinks money grows on in-laws; the girl thinks it grows on trees.

Saying that the boy's parents should chip in is a strawman; we're talking about a situation where they either don't want to or don't have the ability to.

Not every boy has the kishron to learn long term, and not every girl has the money to do so. It makes sense to match up the boys who are able to do it with the girls who are able to afford it. And if there are more boys who can learn then girls who can afford it--well then, only that many boys will learn.

And BTW: there is no kollel stipend in Lakewood. And in chofetz chaim it is 80 dollars a week and isn't usually paid and very few newlyweds qualify for it.

Dancer, however, raises a different point, which is more valid, and we should discuss. That question is whether the current oversupply of girls wanting to learn induces boys to ask for more money than is necessary to learn, that is, they figure why should I drive a Ford to yeshiva if I can drive a Lexus. That is a valid question, but I don't see that anyone else on this thread has been discussing that, nor that it is implicated by the podcast which started this discussion.

dancer90

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Post Re: VERY DISTURBING
on: March 1, 2013, 4:27 PM

Quote from atararox on March 1, 2013, 1:17 PM
fine...he then went on to say that a boy who wants to learn for 5+ years has every right and SHOULD look for money so that he can learn in comfort.
he then went on to say that shadchanim will not redt a girl whose parents are not wealthy, to a boy who is serious about his learning.
i am baffled and highly disturbed.
this is not personal for me because i am not looking for a long term learner and my parents are able to support short term so i am speaking objectively.
is this what this world has come to?????
what ever happend to the real kollel lifestyle?
whatever happened to learning lishmah?
our gedolim in the past certainly did not "marry Money" so that they can learn in comfort.
!

feigy this is precisely what this thread is about! the fact that because learning boy know they are in demand, they can request far more than what is necessary to be in kollel.
read it again and you will understand that atara and bygirl are saying that boys (as a whole) are not ok with just som help from in laws. they want wealth. its fact. cant argue with it....

dancer90

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Post Re: VERY DISTURBING
on: March 1, 2013, 4:35 PM

Quote from atararox on March 1, 2013, 2:50 PM
yes he is clearly misinformed that its not possible to live without major money.
but what i took from it is that a good serious yeshiva boy will not be willing to give up lifes small luxuries for the sake of learning and not only is it ok but its expected.
)

here again feigy...cant say its true about EVERY learning boy. but by and large this is the mindset.

feigy123

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Post Re: VERY DISTURBING
on: March 2, 2013, 7:01 PM

I'm sorry you feel that way; I haven't the slightest idea what gave you that impression. It is not the impression I have, and is not the mindset of boys I have known.

atararox

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Post Re: VERY DISTURBING
on: March 2, 2013, 7:23 PM

it is not solely the way dancer feels. or i the way i feel. or the way thinkingbygirl feels but this is what was clearly implied on the talk show wed night and as dancer said....her brother who is involved with a big yeshiva sees it too. but im happy for you feigy123 that you dont have to struggle with this. and you have such a positive outlook on the whole money issue! that is very nice to hear 🙂 hatzlocha!
btw... Nefesh Shimshon - Gates of emunah by R' Shimshon Pincus is an incredible book on emunah for anyone interested!
it is brilliant and very understandable!!!!!

InShidduch-
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Post Re: VERY DISTURBING
on: March 2, 2013, 7:27 PM

Quote from feigy123 on March 1, 2013, 3:14 PM
I'm sorry folks, but this thread is ridiculous. It costs a certain amount to live--no matter which lifestyle you are looking for. If a boy wants to learn, he has every right to look for a wife who will enable him to learn.

This idea that he can just live "the old style kollel lifestyle" is mishegas; no more and no less. You cannot find a 1 room apt in Lakewood without running water, because it is illegal, and you need an apartment. That is the largest cost of being married. Sure, you can eat cheaper food, and not have a cellphone, but a girl whose parents cannot support and doesn't have the ability to work, will not be able to support even enough for that cheaper lifestyle.

Also, the whole issue is irrelevant, because there is no girl who wants to "live the old stye kollel lifestyle" with these guys anyway. If I was a boy, and in that situation, and being pressured to go out with such a girl, I would ask on the first date if she was ok with having no sheitels or jewelry ever, and one new outfit per year. And having the wedding in the shul on friday afternoon with a shabbos meal at her parents house for the wedding meal. When she agrees to that, I'll know we can pull it off.

Not everyone gets to marry a learning boy; not every boy gets to be a learning boy. Deal with it.

This world runs on three things, the first being TORAH. No matter what direction this world is heading in, no matter the high style living, the new technology and whatever else, Hashem would not create a world where it is impossible for Talmidei Chachomim to survive. therefore, there is no way one can say its impossible to live the kollel life for someone that has that level of emunah and is willing to be moser nefesh. and im sorry, but i really feel you are not giving many girls credit. there is a chunk of special girls that are willing to live this way, and they will be the wives of our talmidei chachomim.
also, do you not see kollel families today? do you not see the wives of talmidei chachomim and roshei yeshiva presenting themselves well? You be moser nefesh, show Hashem your emunah in Him, and Hashem will provide you with what you need.
Sure, a boy can look for a wife that will enable him to learn. That wife is the type of woman who is an akeres habayis, not a money tree. a woman who is maamin baHashem and will enstill that emunah in her children.

atararox

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Post Re: VERY DISTURBING
on: March 2, 2013, 7:40 PM

inshidduchimfollower - do you agree that is has become a general mindset for yeshiva boys to look for money in a shidduch? perhaps i and few others are imagining things?!
your post is really nice btw

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Post Re: VERY DISTURBING
on: March 2, 2013, 8:09 PM

as i said before, sure, a boy can look for a wife that will enable him to learn. That wife is the type of woman who is an akeres habayis, not a money tree. a woman who is maamin baHashem and will enstill that emunah in her children. youre right that many boys feel that they should be supported. i think its beautiful that parents are willing to support, but i think its a chutzpah of boys to demand it, and unfortunately that has often become the case. but there are still boys that are the real deal...

atararox

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Post Re: VERY DISTURBING
on: March 2, 2013, 8:13 PM

thanks! i completely agree! you put it into perspective very well.

feigy123

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Post Re: VERY DISTURBING
on: March 2, 2013, 8:34 PM

Quote from atararox on March 2, 2013, 7:23 PM
it is not solely the way dancer feels. or i the way i feel. or the way thinkingbygirl feels but this is what was clearly implied on the talk show wed night and as dancer said....her brother who is involved with a big yeshiva sees it too.

Thanks for the sefer reference. maybe I'll look it up.

I don't think it is at all implied from the speech that boys should look for more wealth than is necessary to learn. All I see there is that boys should look for enough wealth that it is possible to learn--which is quite a lot. Especially if you intend to learn for many years with a large family.

thinkingby recommends that you just leave kollel when you have a large family and cannot afford it. I recommend trying prospectively to marry someone that you will be able to stay in kollel even then.

inshidduchim follower says that Hashem will make sure you can learn anyway. That is not the hashkafa I believe in, nor my rav, nor my father, nor his rosh yeshiva, etc. Perhaps if a boy believes that, then he should not look for money, but probably the boys agree with me, and you can't fault them for that.

Inshidduchim follower also thinks it is chutzpah to demand a wife that will support you in learning. I disagree. There are many families who are willing to support in learning, and many girls who have jobs and can support. It is not chutzpah to choose those families. This was commonly done in Europe by the talmidei chachomim.

LuvAhuva

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Post Re: VERY DISTURBING
on: March 2, 2013, 8:37 PM

unfortunatley it has come to the point today where boys do expect a subsatantial amount of support.
obviously in different circles of jews the expectations will be different but i have had shadchanim as me for an exact amount of support that my parents are willing to give - even before they agreed to go out with me.
i dont know if these boys are "top boys" (def not in my eyes) but like thinkingbygirl said it has become an auction somewhat.
it is beautiful if parents can support and are happy to. and if it doesnt exert extra amount of pressure on them to work more hours or stress them out if business not doing well. but it seems today boys dont recognize that. they seem to feel that if a girl wants a boy who is learning she has to be able to afford it. this is the ultimate crisis.
but hashem is running the world and no one should despair!!! EVERYONE WILL GET WHAT THEY DESERVE.
heard a beautiful vort even though purim is over...you can apply it however youd like.
when esther was taken to the palace of achashverosh all the women pitied her.
they didnt understand. how cud hashem do this to her? such a tzadekes! taken away from her husband and forced to live with the lowest king and stooped in the sickest of pritzus... how cud hashem bestow such bushah on her...
years late after all was said and done....esther hamalkah was glorified to the ultimate capacity. not only did she have the zechus to save the entire klal yisroel from being wiped out,but her legend lives on and we have a fast day every year in her name. even though now it seems like so many great girls are suffering and being tossed aside for wrong reasons - hashem has a plan. its hard but its true.

thinkingBY-
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Post Re: VERY DISTURBING
on: March 2, 2013, 8:50 PM

thinkingbygirl: Your argument is indeed an indictment of the kollel system--that is, of people wanting to stay in kollel long term. But it is just that and no more.

Feigy123, I'm not sure I understand what you mean. My point was just basically, as dancer90 wrote, that boys are being indoctrinated with the attitude that they are "worth" a certain amount of money. They are learning, and thus they are entitled to full support from their in-laws. Obviously this attitude isn't true in all cases, but it's a growing problem. I also went further to suggest that it's an issue when young couples expect their parents to pay their bills. This generation has this sense of entitlement, learning boys more so because their rebbeim are telling them to ask for money.

You can argue against that system; you might be right that it is not appropriate for a couple to want to learn and be supported by others. But that is not the relevant question, since in our scenario the girl also wants to learn long term and is being unrealistic. At least the boy thinks money grows on in-laws; the girl thinks it grows on trees.

Saying that the boy's parents should chip in is a strawman; we're talking about a situation where they either don't want to or don't have the ability to.

I wasn't arguing against the system; I think it's a beautiful thing for a boy to stay in learning for as long as possible, as long as he is really accomplishing and growing in his learning. He just isn't doing himself or anyone else any favors if he's bench-warming. In fact, if we lived in an ideal world, most guys would and should stay in learning indefinitely. Not only is it his chiyuv and a tremendous mitzvah that holds up the world, it can do tremendous things for him, his family, and klal yisroel. Since our world is a far cry from utopia, there becomes an issue when the couple is unrealistic about the "possible" in "as long as possible." Expecting Tatty to make it happen for them, because "that's just how things are done," is wrong. Thinking money grows on trees or on the in-laws isn't the problem, it's more about guys thinking that their learning can be used as a bargaining tool to secure money.

Where do you get that girls are being unrealistic more than boys are? It's admirable for a girl to want to support her husband in long-term learning. If her parents can't support, maybe his can help, or if neither can, then she needs to have a really good job, or you know what, they will figure out how to make it happen. Hashem is the One Who holds the key to parnossa!

Essentially, the problem here is when a boy won't go out with a girl because she can't agree to full support. The issue is the mindset that he's entitled to money. Whether it's to go out to eat every night, lease a new luxury car every few months, or just paying everyday bills, when did shidduchim become about the money rather than the girl's middos, personality, etc.? That is really what this thread is all about.

I know it happens, it isn't a figment of our imaginations. I've heard horror stories (and at least one of them first hand from the girl it happened to) how the couple was ready to get engaged and her parents couldn't agree to the amount of money per month he and his parents were asking for. And personally, it's happened a few times that the boy has asked for full support. One time the boy's mother told the shadchan that she only lets her son go out with girls whose parents promise an apartment in E"Y (mind you, they themselves were very wealthy so it wasn't like they just wanted to make sure their son would be okay). In another situation, the boy's side told the shadchan, "well we looked into her and we're very interested, but we just want to make sure they agree to give x amount a month because he wants to learn for awhile." It's more the attitude than anything that bothers me. Yes, we understand living costs money, and your parents (both sets I assume) don't want their kids and grandkids to starve, but don't expect, especially don't expect the girl's side to cough it all up.

It's disturbing that it has become a business deal.

thinkingby recommends that you just leave kollel when you have a large family and cannot afford it. I recommend trying prospectively to marry someone that you will be able to stay in kollel even then.

I was saying that you need to be realistic, not milk Mommy and Tatty for money if they are paying triple mortgages and taking out more and more loans to make your dream come true. There is a certain responsibility you have as an adult. You have your own family, you need to figure out your own finances. It's great if your parents and in-laws can help, but don't expect it! Also, how can you ever be sure that you are "marrying someone that will let you stay in kollel even as your family grows?" Money comes and money goes. You never have a guarantee that you will be able to rely on Tatty l'olmei ad. Be realistic and be responsible. Don't think you're worth money and that it's your kallah's achryus to support you.

feigy123

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Post Re: VERY DISTURBING
on: March 2, 2013, 9:00 PM

Quote from thinkingBYgirl on March 2, 2013, 8:50 PM

thinkingbygirl: Your argument is indeed an indictment of the kollel system--that is, of people wanting to stay in kollel long term. But it is just that and no more.

Feigy123, I'm not sure I understand what you mean. My point was just basically, as dancer90 wrote, that boys are being indoctrinated with the attitude that they are "worth" a certain amount of money. They are learning, and thus they are entitled to full support from their in-laws. Obviously this attitude isn't true in all cases, but it's a growing problem. I also went further to suggest that it's an issue when young couples expect their parents to pay their bills. This generation has this sense of entitlement, learning boys more so because their rebbeim are telling them to ask for money.

You can argue against that system; you might be right that it is not appropriate for a couple to want to learn and be supported by others. But that is not the relevant question, since in our scenario the girl also wants to learn long term and is being unrealistic. At least the boy thinks money grows on in-laws; the girl thinks it grows on trees.

Saying that the boy's parents should chip in is a strawman; we're talking about a situation where they either don't want to or don't have the ability to.

Essentially, the problem here is when a boy won't go out with a girl because she can't agree to full support. The issue is the mindset that he's entitled to money. Whether it's to go out to eat every night, lease a new luxury car every few months, or just paying everyday bills, when did shidduchim become about the money rather than the girl's middos, personality, etc.? That is really what this thread is all about.

It's disturbing that it has become a business deal.

Yes, I am glad we are talking to each other and not past each other. Your point is that a boy should not feel that just because there is a shidduch crisis, he is entitled to ask for any amount of support from his inlaws and wife. He should marry someone who will be a good wife for him, and then if they are able to learn--he will learn; if they cannot--he will not.

I happen to disagree with that, because I think his priority should be to learn even so. And that if there is any way to facilitate that, then he should do it. And I think that historically marriage was much more of a business deal than it is today, and I point to the story where the taz sued his father in law the bach for not providing him meat to eat like was promised in the marriage agreement.

I don't think we need to discuss whether your argument is an indictment of the kollel system or not, and perhaps I was overstrident. But do you agree that in your system, some boys who want to learn will find themselves unable to, because of who they choose to marry--while if they had happened to marry the next girl, they would have learned for 40 years? Is that a result you are comfortable with? I am not.

LuvAhuva

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Post Re: VERY DISTURBING
on: March 2, 2013, 9:04 PM

yes shidduchim today has become, largely, a business deal. rather than an ehrlich boy and a nice girl who can make a good life together and share similar hashkafos and THEN figure out the monetary details.
it IS a spreading problem today and anyone who doesnt see it is or wont admit it is not being positive - they are just contributing the this crisis. and i too have heard storied of shidduchim not going through because of slight money issues.
recent article in mishpacha where shadchan yisorel friedman from lakewood wrote that a shidduch he made alomst didnt happen over a 100 dollar a month difference in the amount the girl was able to give versus the amount the boy was asking. HE had to give the couple this difference in order for the shidduch to go through.
now can such a marriage really lead to ultimate fullfillment and happiness? i wonder.......

LuvAhuva

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Post Re: VERY DISTURBING
on: March 2, 2013, 9:06 PM

Quote from feigy123 on March 2, 2013, 9:00 PM

But do you agree that in your system, some boys who want to learn will find themselves unable to, because of who they choose to marry--while if they had happened to marry the next girl, they would have learned for 40 years? Is that a result you are comfortable with? I am not.

i am so sorry but this a warped way of thinking.
maybe if he wouldve married the next girl he would been able to learn for 40 years...and maybe with the next girl he could have learned for 40 years with 2 cars and a mansion.
and maybe with next girl he would have learned for 40 years with two cars and a mansion and luxury vacations and beautiful children....

this is pretty much what your implying. very sad.

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Post Re: VERY DISTURBING
on: March 2, 2013, 9:09 PM

Interesting point feigy. You realize that in the kesuba it states that the boy has an achryus to support his wife, not vice versa. And it's great when her parents, or rather if she can support them, because then it becomes their mesiras nefesh together. When her parents support, then they have a chelek in his learning. All wonderful. My point though, that it shouldn't be expected, and his learning used as a bargaining chip. Also, you can't always ensure that you will be able to learn long-term even if you marry into money. "Rabbos machshavos b'lev ish"... "Man plans, G-d laughs." You can do your best, but remember to be respectful and responsible. It should be more about who the girl is than the girth of her Daddy's bank account.

And I agree with Ahuva. Hashem runs the world, we each have a zivug we are supposed to marry. Also, how do you know what will happen if he marries into money? Maybe his father-in-law's source of income will go bankrupt, or who knows... Haven't you heard the stories of the guys who marry into money so they can learn, but instead get swept up in the gashmiyus and leave learning prematurely? We never know what can happen, we can only try our best. Does that really involve making shidduchim more about money than middos?

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Post Re: VERY DISTURBING
on: March 2, 2013, 9:16 PM

yes the kesubah clearly states that a man has a chiyuv to support his wife. however there is a thing called a dowry in which the girls father gives a "gift" to the sun in law for marrying his daughter but i learned in sem that these days the dowry is covered by the price od the wedding because even a cheap takana wedding is thousands of dollars and in most cases the girl pays for the wedding.
so we are still left with the fact that that this responsibilty for the girls side to support is largely a new concept in this generation.

dancer90

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Post Re: VERY DISTURBING
on: March 2, 2013, 9:36 PM

i heard something interesting. it was mentioned a few times that the rebbeim and roshei yeshiva ar encouraging the boys to look for money. so i heard that the reason for this is, is because if their talmidim have rich fathers in law it is likely they will be able to give large donations to the yeshiva regularly and this is what they are after. they want steady supporters for their yeshiva. now if a wealthy man has a son in law in a specific yeshiva, wouldnt he be more likely to give a donation there over other yeshivos? like they have good intentions but they dont realize the damage their doing...again im not saying its all rebeim and i dont know forusre if its true but its food for thought.

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Post Re: VERY DISTURBING
on: March 2, 2013, 9:38 PM

And one more point, Adam's curse is "b'zayas apecha tochal lechem," and Chava's "b'etzev t'ldi banim." It has become the noble choice of many girls nowadays to take over both, but it's really not her responsibility or that of her parents. Therefore, I think it's wrong for boys to expect the girl to support.

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Post Re: VERY DISTURBING
on: March 2, 2013, 10:00 PM

I think there is a problem in that the boys are asking for large amounts of money from the girls, but we're forgetting something: a lot of the time it's the mother of the boy who is picking through the girls and deciding who he should and should not date. Not all boys are into the gashmius. If they are sincere learners and have strong emunah and bitachon then regardless of how much money the girl's family has, they will strive to grow in their learning. Once they get married, it's the couple who have to live together day by day. They will decide how much money they need and use to live.
I have two brothers, Baruch Hashem. One got married a few months ago and one is single. They are both very spiritual and brilliant yeshiva bachurim. The one who got married got into Brisk (Rav Avraham Yehoshua's) and was the first boy in his yeshiva ever to make it in.
My mother is one of those Jewish mothers who will move mountains for her children. She was afraid that they won't be able to live without a girl who's parents have money and can support and that the girl will work and has to have a college degree.
My brother dated a girl who's parents were both doctors and she has a degree. He ended up marrying her and they are very happy together. Now, this girl's mother is not practicing and her father was out of a job. We found this out when he proposed to her. (kind've awkward she told him on the spot because they knew they were going to get engaged but he proposed before she thought he would. Actually before my parents met the girl because the news leaked out that they were going to get engaged and he wanted to do it before everyone knew and talked about it.) Anyways, they got married anyhow, but my mother was frantic and kept wanting to call it off. They didn't and they have been married for several moths and my mother loves her. She treats her like a daughter and they talk all the time on the phone. And you know what? Now for my other brother she's not concerned anymore about the whole "parents have to have money."
It's really a generational mindset. Like everyone's been saying, the rebbeim are telling the boys they need money and the mothers also want the "best" for their boys.
Is it fair? No. But it is up to Hashem and we have to remember this. It is clear to my whole family that my brother's wife is his bashert. Like thinkingbygirl said "man plans, God laughs." No matter how much we think we get to choose who we marry, ultimately we end up marrying the person who is best for us. We should seek (unbiased and not misguided) rabbinic counsel if we are facing a dilemma.

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Post Re: VERY DISTURBING
on: March 2, 2013, 10:17 PM

wow
happy to hear that your mother learned a good lesson from this! kol hakavod to her!

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Post Re: VERY DISTURBING
on: March 2, 2013, 10:26 PM

yeah I am too! Because I'm a girl it bothered me that she was doing this and I felt like "what if all the mother's want all this for their sons?" She always tries to work on herself though and she is a great mother and mother-in-law.

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Post Re: VERY DISTURBING
on: March 2, 2013, 10:48 PM

🙂 🙂 🙂 🙂 🙂
lol i always wonder about mothers in general who have sons and daughters in shidduchim. for their sons they are looking for money and only let them go out with girls who are promising support.
but when the shadchanim ask how much they are willing to support for their daughters theyre like "the chutzpah of these boys mothers and shadchanim to ask for money" LOLOL
and yes i have seen this happen!!

bitachon

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Post Re: VERY DISTURBING
on: March 2, 2013, 11:01 PM

Quote from dancer90 on March 1, 2013, 3:00 PM
i was just speaking to my sister in law about this and she said the other day my brother came home from a shiur by a lakewood rebbe and this is exaclty what he was saying. that boys who want to sit and learn for a number of years need to look for money and girls have to understand that if they dont have it then they can not expect a top boy to go out with them. hashem yirachem. what are the benos yisrael being turned into.valued by how much money their parents have ....and then the middos and personality on the side. 🙁 🙁 🙁

I am horrified!! b/c if you're a ben torah we know and the boys and rabbeim should know that the kesuba makes it mandetory for the man to support his wife...many rabbanim of the past had a "side" source of parnassa such as a store..ex chofetz chaim....today the gedolim, especially in eretz yisrael live simply..nowhere does it say that a learning boy should live a luxurious life driving newish cars dressed to kill. In the old days a yeshivish car was an old car and the kollel family lived simply and many of those early kollelliet did not have the support people expect today!

bitachon

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Post Re: VERY DISTURBING
on: March 2, 2013, 11:17 PM

I feel its a chuzpah for shadchanim to ask for support of girls who have been in the workforce for a number of years and have money set aside. especially when the amount of money in the bank waiting without parent support would equal out or would be more than a girl who just or recently came home from sem with support from her parents.

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tsRight

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Post Re: VERY DISTURBING
on: March 2, 2013, 11:29 PM

So actually, I'm not really "in shidduchim." I went out with one guy twice earlier this year because his father redt the shidduch but he wasn't for me.
I'm only 18 but I've done two years of seminary already cuz I did early admission. I have a lot of friends who are married though. I know what I'm looking for but I don't feel that I'm really ready to get married yet.
As for mothers wanting different things for their sons and their daughters, you're right I can see some mother's doing that and it is outrageous and ironic. However, I am not looking for a long-term learner anyways, so whatever way my mother feels on the topic is irrelevant. But I do want him to be very learnED and to have a rebbe and to learn on the side. And I want him to work. I am in college now myself, so I plan to supplement the income.
I know what I can handle and it's beautiful that a lot of girls want a long-term learner, but I know that I would not be able to handle trying to decide if I should heat the house or fill the pantry.
I think it is horrible and not fair that the girls parents have to support their married children. If you are old enough to get married, then you should be old enough to figure out some way to pay your bills by yourself. And like everyone said here "it says on the kesuba that it is the BOY's responsibility to provide parnassah." We learnt in seminary that ideally they should be learning and working but it is too much of a "nisayon" for boys nowadays to do both, so you should just marry a learning boy.
I'm sorry I know I just let out a whole rant but I feel very strongly about certain things in the whole shidduch world. Good girls who want a working boy should not have to feel like they aren't getting a good boy and there shouldn't be boys who are just "bench warmers" because they feel that there aren't any good girls who want a working boy. And the seminary's should not say that a learning boy is the only way to go. It is not for everyone. People shouldn't feel pressured into dating and wanting a certain type of boy because they are afraid that they will not be looked at as a solid girl. I think everyone (and I'm talking about myself too!) should try to work harder on not stereotyping and judging other people.

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Post Re: VERY DISTURBING
on: March 2, 2013, 11:30 PM

Bitachon - I couldn't agree more.

dancer90

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Post Re: VERY DISTURBING
on: March 2, 2013, 11:55 PM

tryingtodowhatsright you have a great point...(i was not referring to your mother btw i was just saying in general ive seen that. your mother sounds rlly special 😉 )
what your saying about boys who really want to be working and staying in yeshiva so they dont get a bad name is soooo true! its a huge problem because then everyone ends up confused. the girl thinks shes getting a serious learner and the boys plans on going to work the day after his wedding and its a whole messup! and funny thing is alot of these boys who are not even serious, get on the bandwagon too and start requesting $$$.

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Post Re: VERY DISTURBING
on: March 3, 2013, 12:23 AM

Thanks I just told her you said that btw lol 🙂 And you're right - Everyone should just be real and stop trying to do what they think everyone else thinks they should do. Then imho there wouldn't be as big a shidduch crisis because people would be marrying what is best for THEM; not what society dictates you should marry. and there wouldn't be such a shortage of boys because there would be diversity for them and diversity for the girls. And I didn't realize that boys who aren't serious are doing that. That takes real chutzpa.

dancer90

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Post Re: VERY DISTURBING
on: March 3, 2013, 12:34 AM

yep people today do have real chutzpah or rather a selfish sense of enititlement! thats why the most impt thing to do is daven daven daven.
there is so much siyata dishmaya needed in shidduchim these days especially! this world is so deceiving!

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Post Re: VERY DISTURBING
on: March 3, 2013, 12:50 AM

you're right, that's all we could do. We also have to remember and implement into out daily thoughts that Hashem is in charge of everything and everything that happens to us is for the best.

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