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Author Topic: Starting on The Right Foot
Shira

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Post Starting on The Right Foot
on: March 5, 2013, 9:05 AM

I have a question for everybody. Do you think it's important to start off a marriage with the husband learning? Or do you think that if he plans on working anyway after a year it doesn't make much of a difference.

iThink

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Post Re: Starting on The Right Foot
on: March 5, 2013, 9:49 AM

It depends. If the plan is for him to go work within or right after the first year, then what's the idea of that one year of learning? Is it so that it '' looks good '' for other people? Is it because it's what other people in your community are doing? Will it be a '' thing'' if he doesn't do that one year? Who will be bothered by it - parents? You? Him? The yentas?

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Lea

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Post Re: Starting on The Right Foot
on: March 5, 2013, 9:52 AM

If a guy is the type who loves learning, and makes time for learning, then it makes no difference if he carves out a year of marriage to do so full time; he'll always make it a priority. Halachically, a man is supposed to be working when he marries. I really don't see how we can know better than halacha . . .

iThink

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Post Re: Starting on The Right Foot
on: March 5, 2013, 9:57 AM

Just a thought: When it comes to guys who definitely plan to work soon after marriage it's super important to make a distinction between those who will not do kollel time but are committed to being kovea ittim every single day, and those who will do the one or two year kollel stint just to fit in, but unfortunately don't have an independent commitment to the learning once they start working. The former is truly hard to find.

Shira

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Post Re: Starting on The Right Foot
on: March 5, 2013, 10:12 AM

I thought that maybe it helps you start on the right foot?

iThink

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Post Re: Starting on The Right Foot
on: March 5, 2013, 11:06 AM

Quote from Shira on March 5, 2013, 10:12 AM
I thought that maybe it helps you start on the right foot?

I'm not sure what you mean by that.

life123

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Post Re: Starting on The Right Foot
on: March 5, 2013, 12:28 PM

I had a teacher who told us that there is nothing like starting off a marriage and a home if it is all about Torah... I guess that is what you meant?

iThink

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Post Re: Starting on The Right Foot
on: March 5, 2013, 1:16 PM

The trick is to have a home that's all about torah even when you're not in kollel 🙂

life123

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Post Re: Starting on The Right Foot
on: March 5, 2013, 2:07 PM

Exactly... I think part of what the teacher was saying is that starting kollel helps... Though she has been supporting her husband and family for 20 years....

Shira

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Post Re: Starting on The Right Foot
on: March 5, 2013, 3:08 PM

Yeah that is what I meant. Like when you start off your relationship in a Torahdik' a way then you always have something to look back on as what to strive for.

feigy123

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Post Re: Starting on The Right Foot
on: March 5, 2013, 3:59 PM

Personally, I don't buy the starting out on right foot or left foot line. I think the more important questions are: (1) whether learning is important to him, and (2) whether he is or will be a talmid chochom.

Number one is satisfied if it is important to him. You are much more likely to know the answer to that if he is already working and is koveah itim.
Number two is satisfied if he either has been learning for however long you care about, or intends to be. So if he's a bit older but already learned a lot, then it would be satisfied, or if he is younger but plans to learn it would be satisfied.

There is also a third reason, which is what your friends will think. This is satisfied either by him lying to you about how long he will learn, or by you lying to your friends.

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girl

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Post Re: Starting on The Right Foot
on: March 5, 2013, 4:53 PM

Aside from whether learning is important to him or not, whether or not he is or will be a tolmid chacham, what your friends will think, or a year of learning to start off the marriage as a sign of good faith that he will be kovea eitim, I think that yes, there is a concept of learning at the outset of the marriage to begin your marriage "on the right foot." Even if the guy is working while you're dating and has been for awhile, it is a good idea for him to take off some time from work to learn full-time at the outset of your marriage. A year, or even 3-6 months, of learning can do tremendous things for your relationship and your home. It's about understanding what learning is and what it does for a guy (and his family). It's about proper focus, being amul in the right things so you know how (and aren't too distracted by other things) to create room for the shechinah in your home and in your marriage. I wish I could tell you exactly what the learning does, but I haven't been there, so I don't know personally. I think that it's a great question to ask someone who knows more than the peanut gallery over here. 😉 Ask someone who is involved in learning (a rav is best, but a stam serious kollel guy could tell you too), and he will be able to explain it to you.

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im613

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Post Re: Starting on The Right Foot
on: March 5, 2013, 11:52 PM

Quote from thinkingBYgirl on March 5, 2013, 4:53 PM
A year, or even 3-6 months, of learning can do tremendous things for your relationship and your home. It's about understanding what learning is and what it does for a guy (and his family). It's about proper focus, being amul in the right things so you know how (and aren't too distracted by other things) to create room for the shechinah in your home and in your marriage.

I definitely agree!
Once the foundation of your home and relationship with your husband iy"H is built on Torah, it is much stronger and cant compare!

feigy123

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Post Re: Starting on The Right Foot
on: March 6, 2013, 12:01 AM

Quote from inshidduchim613 on March 5, 2013, 11:52 PM

Quote from thinkingBYgirl on March 5, 2013, 4:53 PM
A year, or even 3-6 months, of learning can do tremendous things for your relationship and your home. It's about understanding what learning is and what it does for a guy (and his family). It's about proper focus, being amul in the right things so you know how (and aren't too distracted by other things) to create room for the shechinah in your home and in your marriage.

I definitely agree!
Once the foundation of your home and relationship with your husband iy"H is built on Torah, it is much stronger and cant compare!

I don't know how either of you can possibly know that. It isn't intuitive.

thinkingBY-
girl

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Post Re: Starting on The Right Foot
on: March 6, 2013, 2:02 AM

Not sure if you really mean "intuitive," but to answer what I think you're saying, you're right, it's not like we know this first-hand, and it's not automatically true that just via the fact that someone is learning at the outset of his marriage that he will have a stronger foundation etc going forward. However, if he isn't just bench-warming in the BM (or haunting the coffee room), there is a good chance his learning is changing him as a person and thus altering his marriage as well. If you understand what learning is about, you can understand the concept. I haven't personally had this experience (I'm not a guy and can't learn the way they can 😛 ), but I have talked to (and heard enough people talk) who are the real deal, the ones who are really being amul b'torah the right way. To really get it you have to ask someone who is involved in learning (a rav is best, but a stam serious kollel guy could tell you too), and he will be able to explain it to you.

feigy123

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Post Re: Starting on The Right Foot
on: March 6, 2013, 9:11 AM

I guess the question I'm asking is that I believe that Torah changes a person, but I don't know if I believe that it also changes their marriage in any sense--more than if the person had already been changed.

Meaning, that you aren't making a qualitative argument about the person being a better person, because then all that should matter is how much he learned--not when he did so. Rather, you are arguing that if the learning happens within the marriage, then it also changes the marriage. That idea is not very obvious to me, and I don't see why it would be true, and I'm not aware of any source for it in chazal or elsewhere.

And it really is impossible for anyone to know, since you couldn't exactly do a study or even have anecdotal evidence.

So why do you assume that?

inshidduch-
im613

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Post Re: Starting on The Right Foot
on: March 6, 2013, 12:42 PM

Quote from feigy123 on March 6, 2013, 12:01 AM

Quote from inshidduchim613 on March 5, 2013, 11:52 PM

Quote from thinkingBYgirl on March 5, 2013, 4:53 PM
A year, or even 3-6 months, of learning can do tremendous things for your relationship and your home. It's about understanding what learning is and what it does for a guy (and his family). It's about proper focus, being amul in the right things so you know how (and aren't too distracted by other things) to create room for the shechinah in your home and in your marriage.

I definitely agree!
Once the foundation of your home and relationship with your husband iy"H is built on Torah, it is much stronger and cant compare!

I don't know how either of you can possibly know that. It isn't intuitive.

How about from talking to people who started off in kollel and hearing them say how it definitely changed their marriage??
How could it NOT change a couple's relationship when they are starting it off with such kedusha and on such a solid foundation??
The beginning of a marriage is the foundation for all the years to come and it is crucial to start it off on a solid yesod

feigy123

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Post Re: Starting on The Right Foot
on: March 6, 2013, 1:57 PM

inshidduchim613: Think about that again. You can't ask someone who started out in kollel how it changed their marriage, because all marriages change in the beginning and also later. They can't know what is different because they were in kollel.

And I don't find your argument very persuasive. You say how can it not change when you start off with such kedusha? Maybe. Maybe not. Who says that kedusha of learning is related to your marital relationship?

Won't you at least acknowledge that what you are claiming is a chiddush?

thinkingBY-
girl

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Post Re: Starting on The Right Foot
on: March 6, 2013, 2:21 PM

Hmmm, I don't think it's a chiddush. Just because there isn't empirical data proving the argument or because you can't see this as obvious for yourself, it means it isn't true? Have you never heard how people talk about their learning and attest to this -- rabbanim/rebbeim, lecturers, seminary teachers (men who can testify this first-hand), and others?

Are you saying that only if there is tangible proof available to you you can believe something is true?

feigy123

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Post Re: Starting on The Right Foot
on: March 6, 2013, 2:39 PM

I think you're conflating two things though. I believe that learning changes the person; I just don't believe that it changes the marriage. All those personal attestations are about the person; not about the marriage. Nobody can attest even personally about it changing the marriage, since they have nothing to compare it to, since they didn't also get married to their wife and not be in learning.

I am not saying I need tangible proof. I am saying in the absence of tangible proof, I need at least an argument that goes beyond "it must be true because torah has kedusha". I need a specific logical link. I don't think there is one.

Bracha613

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Post Re: Starting on The Right Foot
on: March 6, 2013, 3:30 PM

Feigy, try to remember when you were in school didn't the first day with a teacher set the tone for the whole year. Any teacher can tell you that a bad first day can mess up the whole year. It's the same way with marriage. The same way when we were in semenary while we were having classes ect. our Shiefos were higher, we were striving to be better more then now (unfortunately). I imagine it's the same way with a boy in Yeshiva it just makes sense that when you are involved in Ruchnius that your Shiefos are higher and you have more spiritual energy. If a marriage is started off in such a way it will then set the tone for the whole marriage, to be a marriage of Ruchnius, a marriage of Shifus, and a marriage that will bring Mashiach....................Amen

Cherry

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Post Re: Starting on The Right Foot
on: March 6, 2013, 4:02 PM

I think by a womaN fully supporting a man in learning is currupt. Doesn't he agree in the kesuva that he will support his wife?? I believe in this day n age a man should have a degree. We are not living back in ancient Europe. And if he wants to learn while he's obtaining that degree and after he's finished it. Thts great. No matter how much of a Talmud chochom he is. He must be educated secularly more than his wife. A guy should feel like the man and the main provider. That is the main basis of shalom Bayis. There should be a 'system' Once the couple has saved up after one or two years of both working he can take a break for a year and go learn. The current system is teaching generations Hakol megi lach...this generation's expectations are getting way to out of hand.
A new kollel system needs to be in place.

Cherry

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Post Re: Starting on The Right Foot
on: March 6, 2013, 4:24 PM

Bracha the Ruchnius of a marriage relationship is following Halacha, loving and respecting one another.
Learning is to do with building the actual home based on Torah values not anything to do with the Ruchnius of a marriage relationship.
I think once the Ruchnius of the marriage relationship is obtained the man if he's able to should start to learn full time. Either become a rosh yeshiva and lean for the rest of his life or go out again and make a living to support his family. And keep up the Torah learning.

Bracha613

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Post Re: Starting on The Right Foot
on: March 7, 2013, 4:11 PM

Quote from Cherry on March 6, 2013, 4:24 PM
Learning is to do with building the actual home based on Torah values not anything to do with the Ruchnius of a marriage relationship.

Hmm I'm not sure if I agree with that.

Cherry

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Post Re: Starting on The Right Foot
on: March 7, 2013, 4:59 PM

I can see why you wouldn't .

inshidduch-
im613

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Post Re: Starting on The Right Foot
on: March 8, 2013, 7:02 PM

Quote from feigy123 on March 6, 2013, 1:57 PM
inshidduchim613: Think about that again. You can't ask someone who started out in kollel how it changed their marriage, because all marriages change in the beginning and also later. They can't know what is different because they were in kollel.

And I don't find your argument very persuasive. You say how can it not change when you start off with such kedusha? Maybe. Maybe not. Who says that kedusha of learning is related to your marital relationship?

Won't you at least acknowledge that what you are claiming is a chiddush?

No-I actually don't think it's a chiddush!
and i think if someone married says she feels that her husband's learning really made a difference to her marriage, i dont think the fact that she never tried it any other way invalidates her point.

the fact is that the extra kedusha and focus of a home where the husband is learning is different than a home where the husband is not. i dont think anyone can argue that. that being said, when a home starts of that way, and a solid foundation is laid, it definitely makes a difference.

InShidduch-
imFollower

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Post Re: Starting on The Right Foot
on: March 10, 2013, 1:22 AM

there is no way anyone can deny that marriage is different in a home where a husband is learning Torah. Torah is the instruction booklet Hashem handed us in life. It is so vast with so many new and different chidushim. It takes a lifetime for one to learn it. and all that one learns should be integrated into his life, because whatever the Torah teaches is there for us to live by. Feigy, you cant deny that Torah teaches us how to behave in every situation in life. A jewish marriage is one of the many important things the Torah discusses. and it gives all that we need to know to better ourselves and better our marriages. there is constantly more to learn, more to internalize and more areas in which better ourselves. one that is constantly involved in torah study, constantly has these ideas at the forefront. someone that is learning automatically is connected more, and works on himself more to be the good husband, brother etc. the Torah deals with everything, including marriage. so yes, a person that starts off his marriage learning is in a much better place than someone that doesnt. and yes, the kedusha of Torah has a very direct influence on one's relationship with his spouse, directly affecting his marriage. what is marriage if not for a relationship between a husband and wife? and yes, the Torah teaches us all about relationships.

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im613

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Post Re: Starting on The Right Foot
on: March 10, 2013, 4:10 AM

Wow! great post inshidduchimfollower! u explained the point rlly well!! Thanks for backing me up 🙂

InShidduch-
imFollower

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Post Re: Starting on The Right Foot
on: March 10, 2013, 6:00 PM

was just standing there cleaning for pesach, and realized that i have more to add to clarify the point further, so i came back on here. one of the most important relationships in the Torah is the one between a husband and wife. it is the relationship that teaches us what our relationship to Hashem should be like. so therefore, where else can we learn it from if not for the Torah? our whole purpose here is to come closer to Hakadosh Baruch Hu. a means to that is marriage. so of course we need the Torah in our lives. from day one till the very end.

iThink

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Post Re: Starting on The Right Foot
on: March 11, 2013, 2:52 PM

Inshidduchimfollower and inshidduchim613

Are you saying that only someone who is in kollel all day is able to enjoy the spiritual advantages of torah learning? So someone who considers himself a ben torah first and worker second cannot expect to see his mesiras nefesh for torah impact his ruchniyus and marriage? Please explain, I'm confused.

iThink

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Post Re: Starting on The Right Foot
on: March 11, 2013, 2:56 PM

What I mean is, all your points regarding the effects of torah learning on a man are 100% true. But how is that exclusive to full time kollel learners (which is the point of this discussion.)

InShidduch-
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Post Re: Starting on The Right Foot
on: March 11, 2013, 5:36 PM

good point iThink. sorry for not clarifying that. So truthfully speaking, the ideal would be if a man can sit and learn his whole life. but realistically that is not for everyone. and its true that it is a yissochor-zevulun relationship. meaning, if there was nobody earning money and supporting the Torah, there would be no Torah. so its true we need both. and its also true that the ideal is not for everyone. but it doesnt take away from the fact that Torah can be part of every person's life. Meaning, a man that is working but puts in all his mesiras nefesh to put in the learning hours where ever he can is a real ben Torah and i admire that a lot. He is really being moser nefesh those last minutes of sleep to do Hashems will and thats trully admirable. that also doesnt take away from the first few years of marriage being engulfed in Torah. unless there is some unique circumstance (which im not denying there may be), the average couple can support themselves on a girl's salary of 20-30K per year the first few years of marriage. Then onward, its for each couple to ask their own shaila about what is right for them to do. So im just saying that there is a big mailah to start off with full-time learning. it enhances your marriage, and doing it for as long as possible (even the first 6 months) will bring tremendous gains. So why not get as much in as possible at the start? and then continue with mesiras nefesh throughout. and its true, a home can be a Torah home even if the husband is working. The question really is, what is the focus in the house.

iThink

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Post Re: Starting on The Right Foot
on: March 11, 2013, 7:09 PM

Quote from InShidduchimFollower on March 11, 2013, 5:36 PM
The question really is, what is the focus in the house.

Thanks for responding. Your last line sums it all up.

Shira

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Post Re: Starting on The Right Foot
on: April 28, 2013, 3:02 PM

Fiegy123 I just read your question and the answer on the "should I compromise" article. Do you agree with her? Just curious.

feigy123

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Post Re: Starting on The Right Foot
on: April 28, 2013, 4:05 PM

Quote from Shira on April 28, 2013, 3:02 PM
Fiegy123 I just read your question and the answer on the "should I compromise" article. Do you agree with her? Just curious.

I hear the argument better than I used to after reading some of the responses here and Sara's response over there. But ultimately, no, I respectfully disagree. I think that there is no inherent value to learning while married over learning before being married, and the critical question is how much Torah he learned, and how committed of an oved Hashem it has made him.

It's ok though. There can be reasonable positions on both sides.

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