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Author Topic: Is it worth it?
sem613

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Post Is it worth it?
on: October 23, 2013, 9:03 PM

To start off, I plan on going into a profession I love but doesn't pay so well. Because of that I am not looking for a long-term longer because I know its not practical (my parents cant support us)
However, people keep setting me up with long-term learners. Is it worth going out with someone who wants to sit and learn when I know I can't do that and I feel like I would be keeping him back from learning?

dazzleme21

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Post Re: Is it worth it?
on: October 23, 2013, 9:08 PM

unless you win the lottery . or his parents will support , or you have alot of money in the bank .... I dont think you should,because thats what he really wants and if he finds out its not what you can do then its really not tachlis to go out. your not on the same page even though you would love that if you wont have enough money to make it work then I dont think its tachlis to go out

princessch-
arming

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Post Re: Is it worth it?
on: October 23, 2013, 10:43 PM

If you really really want to marry someone that is learning full-time, you don't have to play g-d and make your own cheshbonos. If you have bitachon and are doing it truthfully for the right reason, the money issue should not hold you back. There are many many couples who don't have good jobs, or any support and are somehow managing with the husband learning. Hashem supports those who do His will!

life123

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Post Re: Is it worth it?
on: October 23, 2013, 10:52 PM

However if you really don't want to live on a less materialistic level, don't want to work hard for your livelihood and want your chassan to know that he will have to work relatively soon, don't date a boy who thinks he can learn for a long time.

chaykie

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Post Re: Is it worth it?
on: October 23, 2013, 11:24 PM

hey sem613, i'm in the same sitch. basically i've been in shidduchim abt 3 1/2 years, but i just recently decided what i would like to go into. i always knew i'd work, so for now i've been working, and thinking abt what i want to rlly do with my life. i recently decided, and it also doesnt have the greatest pay (i guess unless ur rlly good), and my parents cannot support at all either. and i don't want to have to be the sole breadwinner as i want to be able to run my house well (as opposed to some nanny), so it's either a lottery, rich in laws, or a learner/earner or earner/learner for me. i'm not setting my hopes up too high for those first two thoughts...

sarala

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Post Re: Is it worth it?
on: October 24, 2013, 12:26 AM

idk I kno this might sound off since l'maaseh e/o has to hav a realistic plan for parnassa, but i dont really think what kind of guy you want and what your ideals are has to do with money. meaning if you want a "long term learner" or a "short term" "guy with a plan" etc etc it should have to do with your hashkafa and your sheifos for your bnb (e.g. you don't marry a LT learner just cause you can afford it if it's not what you value)
....tis fundamental to kno where you stand
HATZLACHA!! Hoping for clarity

musicalsea-
rch

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Post Re: Is it worth it?
on: October 24, 2013, 2:17 AM

B"H, the field of work that I love makes a parnassa that should help me make ends meet iy"H. But I'll never forget how one of my classmates hated coming to class every day because she wasn't interested in the material. In fact, it actually kind of grossed her out. Just imagine going for nursing if you faint at the sight of blood.
She was looking for a 'long time learner' and wanted to be able to support him. A year after she finished her degree she got married and and I lost touch, but I really hope that she pursued a different field so she doesn't feel miserable and unfulfilled like she did in school.

in the gap

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Post Re: Is it worth it?
on: October 24, 2013, 9:02 AM

I agree with Sarala. While one can't expect a nes, I don't think it matters what type of job one has, but rather what one values. If someone has a job that makes a decent parnassah but it is not in a 100% kosher environment chances are at the end of the day either she is going to give up her job or he will stop learning because one can't live a contradicting life. Also, I don't know about everyone else out there, but everyone i know who still has a husband in Kollel ten or more years down the line has a job the "doesn't make money", like teaching or being a babysitter.

sem613

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Post Re: Is it worth it?
on: October 24, 2013, 9:48 AM

I decided a while ago that I'm looking for a learner/earner or earner/learner (I never remember which of those is which). unfortuntatly those aren't the guys I'm being set up with. I keep saying no to the guys that want to be long time learners because of that, but I'm wondering if I'm being too picky

chaykie

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Post Re: Is it worth it?
on: October 24, 2013, 10:13 AM

i don't think ur being too picky at all. i mean, i'm in the same sitch (generally, based on what you said), and we have a right to not want someone sitting and learning all day for the next ten yrs! as for me, like i said, i plan on working, but if i also IY"H have to take care of kids, keep a nice and well run home, cook the meals, do the laundry, yada yada yada...i know myself- i won't be able to do it alone. some of the parnassah is going to have to be brought in by my husband- otherwise i'll end up being stressed and overwhelmed, which is totally normal when the financial burden and homemaking burden is on one person, so i'd rather have someone who will want to put in effort to make a parnassah, so that he can have a happy wife, happy children, happy home.

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Lea

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Post Re: Is it worth it?
on: October 24, 2013, 12:44 PM

I have always been adamant since the beginning that I am not supporting a husband. I have seen how monstrously difficult it was for girls who were unrealistic and thought it could be simple if one "believed" enough. That is not how life works. When money gets tight, things can go downhill fast. It places a major toll on the marriage itself.

The kesubah does not advocate miracles. It says expressly that a man must support his wifeโ€”it wouldn't be in the kesubah if it was just a suggestion, or not the ideal.

I am also on the search for a man who works and yet is learnedโ€”like my father and brothers. I have gone out with quite a few. However, many still try to set me up with learners, and in situations when I couldn't wriggle out of it I went out with them. So far, I am sure of my decision.

Nowadays if a girl is single she is automatically accused of being "picky." I think "picky" means when a girl says no because the guy's nose was slightly off-center. Not that she wants her marriage to be as the kesubah dictates. No worries, sem613, you are not "picky." You are looking around the corner, and I applaud you for it. Stay strong in your search!

Princess-
Lea

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Post Re: Is it worth it?
on: October 24, 2013, 12:45 PM

Quote from chaykie on October 24, 2013, 10:13 AM
i don't think ur being too picky at all. i mean, i'm in the same sitch (generally, based on what you said), and we have a right to not want someone sitting and learning all day for the next ten yrs! as for me, like i said, i plan on working, but if i also IY"H have to take care of kids, keep a nice and well run home, cook the meals, do the laundry, yada yada yada...i know myself- i won't be able to do it alone. some of the parnassah is going to have to be brought in by my husband- otherwise i'll end up being stressed and overwhelmed, which is totally normal when the financial burden and homemaking burden is on one person, so i'd rather have someone who will want to put in effort to make a parnassah, so that he can have a happy wife, happy children, happy home.

Perfectly said!

chaykie

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Post Re: Is it worth it?
on: October 24, 2013, 2:37 PM

thanks princessleah ๐Ÿ™‚
look, i'm totally not against full day learners. if someone wants to sit and learn all day and he marries a girl who wants a full time learner, that's great. If it's what they both want and they think they can do it, wonderful. I was speaking to a neighbors daughter in law recently. She is holding down three jobs while her husband is full time learning. It's what they wanted. But, she told me, while she so enjoys what she does and enjoys the life they have, she admits to not knowing exactly what it meant to marry a full time learner before she got married. She said two interesting things also, that i'd like to share with you.
A) girls (i mean the just out of sem, dreamy eyed girls) who decide they want to marry full time learners think "it's ok i'll make it work, so i don't have to get a new sweater every week or two/new shoes every month" but there are so many "luxuries" that take precedence over that. what if a child ends up needing therapy of some sort? what about if your fridge suddenly breaks down and you need a new one? What if c'v someone needs to go to the ER and there are hospital bills to pay? What about gas bills, electric bills, water bills?? rent, mortgage?? those all come before "a new outfit". wonderful that u'll give up the new outfit, but if you're gonna have to give up on these, i'd say reevaluate. And i know i know, Hashem gives money and takes it away, and He is in charge of every little aspect of our life and what happens, and we totally have to believe in Him. I know that with all my heart. but you also have to be smart and do your hishtadlus. if you know you won't have money for necessities, think it over.

B) A KOLLEL lifestyle is vastly different from a TORAH lifestyle, but ppl interchange them. A kollel lifestyle is indeed one in which the husband is learning in kollel many hours a day, for a prolonged period of time. But, not necessarily is that a Torah lifestyle. meaning, if he mistreats his wife and kids, has no respect for ppl, he is a baal lashon hara... if she dresses questionably, lets her kids watch questionable movies...they're living a kollel lifestyle, in the way that he's learning, she's working, but def not a Torah lifestyle. A Torah lifestyle is one where the parents teach the kids, and themselves follow, the ways of the Torah, they teach and practice Ahavas Hashem, middos...whether the father is learning full day or not is irrelevant. they have a Torah home.

pray today

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Post Re: Is it worth it?
on: October 24, 2013, 3:04 PM

I'm all with everyone on the kollel quandary I just want to add 2 points.

1. Why can't you look for a boy who wants to learn 2 - 3 years? If you have $10,000/$15,000 or so saved up there is no reason you can't manage with no support if you are making a decent amount of money ($22,000?) [Try asking people who learnt in Kollel if this is realistic (I have) you may just be surprised]

2. There is generally a reason why boys are working boys. In my opinion if you want a Ben Torah who will work you will be a lot more likely to find someone like that if he says he wants to learn for the few years first. If he's already working chances are that he does not enjoy learning all that much.

sem613

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Post Re: Is it worth it?
on: October 24, 2013, 3:50 PM

chaykie- totally agree with everything you've said. I want a Torah lifestyle even if I can't manage a Kollel lifestyle

Quote from pray today on October 24, 2013, 3:04 PM
I'm all with everyone on the kollel quandary I just want to add 2 points.

1. Why can't you look for a boy who wants to learn 2 - 3 years? If you have $10,000/$15,000 or so saved up there is no reason you can't manage with no support if you are making a decent amount of money ($22,000?) [Try asking people who learnt in Kollel if this is realistic (I have) you may just be surprised]

2. There is generally a reason why boys are working boys. In my opinion if you want a Ben Torah who will work you will be a lot more likely to find someone like that if he says he wants to learn for the few years first. If he's already working chances are that he does not enjoy learning all that much.

1- thats assuming I have that much saved up, and thats also assuming that I'm comfortable using all my savings within the first few years and not having it saved as a "just in case" (theres also the aspect that I have another year or 2 until I finish my degree and start working)

2- just because someone is working/working on a degree to have a plan to support his family doesnt mean that he doesnt enjoy learning. I have a brother (sorry guys, he's not dating yet) whos working on an intense college degree while learning about 10 hours a day. He doesnt call himself a long time learner because he's planning on working straight out of school, but he sitll learns a lot. There is a middle ground of a Ben Torah who's practical enough to realize he needs to be able to make a parnassah for a family but is still very much machshiv torah and koveah ittim latorah

chaykie

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Post Re: Is it worth it?
on: October 24, 2013, 4:32 PM

pray today, while what you said may be true, girls would find it difficult to be the sole supporter even for the first 2-3 yrs. hopefully IY"H they'll have children within that time, and many girls get stressed out from the idea that they have to support fully and bring up a newborn and run a household...
as for what you said abt working guys...i think its crazy that society looks down upon them because "they didn't enjoy learning too much" who says they didn't enjoy it? and if they didn't enjoy it full day, but enjoy the actual learning, so they set aside special time for it, is that bad? not every boy was cut out to learn! just like not every girl was cut out to learn either! when a girl gets sick and tired after 12 or 14 years of school, we don't look down upon her. she also goes out to work. just like the boy. it's not like either of them is dropping out. it's called being burnt out. it happens. or it may just be pursuing another interest. or using your talent to try to do what Hashem wants you to do with them! why does society look at guys as second class (or just not worth it at all) if they're working?? granted, some are dropouts and a job is saving them from doing drugs and hanging out on the streets with questionable friends. but we are overlooking the boys who are working because they understand that they will IY"H have a family soon, and that his wife might not be able to be the sole supporter! truthfully- i'd much rather my husband work all day and set aside time to learn, because that shows how special that time is to him, that he utilizes it to learn Torah. He makes a point of doing it because it's important to him. I think that's so much more special anyway and shows a boys true love for Torah! cuz its not like they're in yeshiva all day where they are surrounded by Torah. there it's easy! If a boy makes special time for himself, i think that's so much more special. and anyway, (a friend pointed this out to me), obviously if in the Torah there are laws about business, Hashem expects that guys will go to work, and use His halachos. if we didn't need the halachos, He wouldn't have given them to us in the Torah. that's A. B) yissachar/zevulun- obviously if it's in the Torah, it has some application to our lives. sem613 is right. i know that we've all been working for some time now. we've been out of sem for a few yrs. but what if we actually don't have the amount of money you state? what if we've actually used some to help our parents pay the rent sometimes cuz they can barely make it, and so they don't have to go asking for loans and co-signers?? so no, i don't have that much money at all. nowhere near. (sorry praytoday, i totally don't mean to attack! i just get rlly fed up at society sometimes...if i came across as rude, i really didn't mean it. it's just that i don't understand how society can think a certain way. even tho you were just bringing in a side pt, society does think the way you stated...)
sem613 is right. to quote her (i still haven't figured out how to get the pink box!) "There is a middle ground of a Ben Torah who's practical enough to realize he needs to be able to make a parnassah for a family but is still very much machshiv torah and koveah ittim latorah"
and princesslea- if you have brothers, why not try setting a few of us up here? ๐Ÿ™‚

dazzleme21

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Post Re: Is it worth it?
on: October 25, 2013, 2:05 PM

chaykie: sooooo true! and princess lea soo true !! its crazy that in todays world the kesuva is backward bec the wife supports the husband.lol sooo crazy!! and to add to it. man was cursed to work and woman to hav pain in haing children(adam and chava) so why doe some woman put both curses on themselves????

sarala

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Post Re: Is it worth it?
on: October 25, 2013, 4:31 PM

Quote from chaykie on October 24, 2013, 4:32 PM
pray today, while what you said may be true, girls would find it difficult to be the sole supporter even for the first 2-3 yrs....
as for what you said abt working guys...i think its crazy that society looks down upon them because "they didn't enjoy learning too much" who says they didn't enjoy it? and if they didn't enjoy it full day, but enjoy the actual learning, so they set aside special time for it, is that bad? not every boy was cut out to learn! just like not every girl was cut out to learn either! when a girl gets sick and tired after 12 or 14 years of school, we don't look down upon her. she also goes out to work. just like the boy. it's not like either of them is dropping out. it's called being burnt out. it happens. or it may just be pursuing another interest. or using your talent to try to do what Hashem wants you to do with them! why does society look at guys as second class (or just not worth it at all) if they're working?? granted, some are dropouts and a job is saving them from doing drugs and hanging out on the streets with questionable friends. but we are overlooking the boys who are working because they understand that they will IY"H have a family soon, and that his wife might not be able to be the sole supporter! truthfully- i'd much rather my husband work all day and set aside time to learn, because that shows how special that time is to him, that he utilizes it to learn Torah. He makes a point of doing it because it's important to him. I think that's so much more special anyway and shows a boys true love for Torah! cuz its not like they're in yeshiva all day where they are surrounded by Torah. there it's easy! If a boy makes special time for himself, i think that's so much more special. and anyway, (a friend pointed this out to me), obviously if in the Torah there are laws about business, Hashem expects that guys will go to work, and use His halachos. if we didn't need the halachos, He wouldn't have given them to us in the Torah.

I think praytoday was just saying that when boys who are in the general "yeshiva world" (not talking about more modern), then generally at age 22 they would be learning. And it's not like plain enjoyment, tis the sweetness of the Torah (that's why sorry but uncomparable to girls in school) and that is what they are meant to be doing, growing in Torah and Yiraas Shomayim (you should notice that even those who you think "look down" on boys working will usually not say the same about a 28 year old). So yeah, 22 year olds learning well should not be burnt out - that's why ppl s/t assume there's something up if they are. Even those in the general yeshiva world (I just mean vs. an official modern) into degrees- think it's proper Torah hashkafa to push off full-time college/career till after one solid year of kollel. The way the marriage starts off is it's yesod for its lifetime. You want a solid marriage based on Torah, gotta build a strong foundation. (obv more yrs is more foundation, but one year is a VERY solid beginning.........and most ppl should be able to swing it). AND there are those boys (usually let's say not so academic cuz if ur smart and u learn u will like it that IS the nature, impossible not to love learning if you work hard at it) that even at 20-21 will not be productive learning full time. So for them OBV they should do whatever is best for them and personally I DO NOT THINK that those kinda boys are looked down upon. and they will marry wives who share values etc. WHY are you overlooking those boys? maybe therein lies the problem! get connected w/s/o connected to such boys--- if you only go thru shadchanim that basically deal w/LT learners than find s/o else!!
a/o trying to do what Hashem wants of them will never lose out

and one more thing- I hold in very high regard s/o who sets aside a special time to learn, that is a VERY special thing, but you couldve stopped right there. Cause learning all day is NOT easy!!!!!!!! (Yes, I'm sure they do get much more of a chius and it is much nicer when e/o else around you is machshiv the Torah, as opposed to the workplace, and that's all the more reason why they can be more involved in the Torah, vs. s/o who is in another world the whole day and has to "get into it"). Everybody has their own path to follow, and that's what we aim for, to set goals for me and try to reach the goals I set for me. And we should all try to respect and value each other, right?

chaykie

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Post Re: Is it worth it?
on: October 26, 2013, 9:32 PM

dazzleme21: A) the kesuba is NOT backward. i assume you were saying that in jest. it's ppl who are backward. society.
B) it's not that women are putting an extra curse on themselves. if a woman wants to go to college...get a career...it's not a curse for her, cuz she wants it. it's for the rest of us, who wouldn't necessarily go out and get some crazy degree/career, but won't be accepted in society as daughter in law material- it's potential mothers in law putting the extra curse on us. just to clarify. but i don't feel i need to give up on my emotional health to make a mother in law accept me. my mother in law, whoever she will end up being, will except me, major career or not, because she will not stoop to the level of such a shallow, stuck up society.

sarala- it is comparable to girls in school in the way that, some can do it, some can't- not everyone can do it. not every girl can pass every test. not every girl can stand being in school. after sem, we get a job. some boys, after beis medrash for a yr or two, get a job. they still love the Torah. they just can't focus on it the whole day. sitting and looking at a bunch of black letters on white paper, no matter how holy those words are, it takes a toll on the eyes and head once you do it for a prolonged period of time. some ppl can deal with it, some can't. in that way, i equate it with school. And they can still be growing in Torah and yiras Shamayim as they A) lead their lives in the Torah way, and B) make the special time to go to a shiur every once and a while, and have a chavrusa/learning seder once or twice a day. By the time a boy is 22, he's been pouring over the gemara/mishnayos, etc for about 12 yrs. that's beautiful. a lot, and beautiful. and they should not be looked down upon if they feel they'd like to go into the working world at that point to look for a job so he can support the family that he hopes to start soon. For sure it's beautiful to start off a marriage with Torah. You are right, it is the yesod. i don't think it's fair, though, that more years is more of a foundation. i don't think it makes sense actually. cuz when you say that, you are talking about a kollel lifestyle. Which is beautiful to start off with. But after that, you can still lead an amazing marriage with a beautiful foundation that you keep building upon through your husband's being kovei'a itim while living a totally Torah lifestyle. And- just because you work hard at something does not guarantee that you love it! I don't know what you mean by that. Did you love every single subject in school that you worked hard at? I certainly worked very hard- even for the subjects i didn't like. and working harder absolutely did NOT make me like them any better. And i think you must have misunderstood me somewhere (tell me where i was unclear), i'm not overlooking the earner learners- i'm looking for one! i'm not going to shadchanim who deal with only LT learners. and i don't get the last paragraph you wrote. what do you mean i could've stopped right there? that's what i was saying- that learning all day is not easy. if you could just clarify, that'd be great. sorry i don't mean to come across as harsh- i guess we all have a right to disagree, as long as we respect and value each other, as you said.

basmelech

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Post Re: Is it worth it?
on: October 26, 2013, 10:57 PM

Chaykie I hear what you are saying about mother in laws respecting people for who they are and not just what society says. you have a point there. what you wrote about boys looking at little black letters on white paper may describe college work or other courses but it can not possibly relate at all to Torah study. Studying Torah lishma is the most enjoyable, rewarding, and fulfilling thing in the world. It also requires a lot of work and mesiras nefesh. Its not just studying, its our lifeline without Torah this world would disintegrate into nothingness. We cant say its easy if we didnt try it ourselves. Our job is to encourage our husbands to learn and value it. Notice I didnt say support because that is up to the woman to decide that.

To everyone:
Its what we value that matters. Is Torah the focus of our lives or money/career? If someone is unsure they can look to see the people who have achieved most in these areas. Torah- look at our gedolim, Money/career- without Torah leads to stealing and many other aveiros see the kind of people who make it first priority.
What kind of a husband do we want?

sem613

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Post Re: Is it worth it?
on: October 27, 2013, 8:52 AM

Quote from basmelech on October 26, 2013, 10:57 PM
Studying Torah lishma is the most enjoyable, rewarding, and fulfilling thing in the world. It also requires a lot of work and mesiras nefesh. Its not just studying, its our lifeline without Torah this world would disintegrate into nothingness. We cant say its easy if we didnt try it ourselves. Our job is to encourage our husbands to learn and value it. Notice I didnt say support because that is up to the woman to decide that.

well said bas melech. I think the debate here isn't about is torah important, its about that last part, its the question of will we take on supporting our families alone

Quote from basmelech on October 26, 2013, 10:57 PM
To everyone:
Its what we value that matters. Is Torah the focus of our lives or money/career? If someone is unsure they can look to see the people who have achieved most in these areas. Torah- look at our gedolim, Money/career- without Torah leads to stealing and many other aveiros see the kind of people who make it first priority.
What kind of a husband do we want?

However, we can have a life where our focus is Torah even if there is money/career within life.
I know personally what I'm having a hard time with is that I'm looking for someone who Torah is the focus, but at the same time realizes that money/career is part of life, but because Torah is such a central part of my life and what I'm looking for many different shadchanim keep coming up with these great guys who want to sit and learn.

basmelech

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Post Re: Is it worth it?
on: October 27, 2013, 7:35 PM

sem613 yes i agree. i wrote "Money/career- without Torah leads to bad things..." because money/career withTorah can accomplish wonderful things like you said.
Hope you find the right one iy"H! ๐Ÿ™‚

chaykie

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Post Re: Is it worth it?
on: October 27, 2013, 9:41 PM

sorry- i didn't mean for it to sound like i'm comparing Torah with secular text books. i was just trying to say that- yes, even tho Torah is the most enjoyable beautiful wonderful thing in the world- and i totally agree that it IS- not every boy can sit and learn it all day, even if they love it so much and it means so much to them. Do you think every single girl in every single school loves her chumash classes? if she doesn't like the classes, and doesn't do well in them, and can't focus on the subject, does it mean she doesn't love the Torah and want to follow it? absolutely not. It is very possible that to some boys looking at a bunch of black HOLY SPECIAL BEAUTIFUL letters for a prolonged period of time, it's a strain on their heads. In a very physical way. we know that Torah can physically weaken a person. If someone cannot physically learn like that for a whole day, there is nothing wrong with that at all, as long as he is a G-d fearing, G-d loving, honest Torah Jew. and it's fine if he goes out to work. I know there were certain yrs that I couldn't stand the chumash classes (two specif yrs i could think of). maybe it was just too much. maybe it wasn't my kinda learning. maybe it was the teacher. maybe it was staring at black Holy Special Beautiful letters for even two hours at a time. But yes, I love the Torah and I love Hashem with all my heart and soul. I go to shiurim, i listen to shiurim online, i learn with a friend on the phone every night, i go to shul every Shabbos (as long as i'm not sick), I daven, i say tehillim, i thank Hashem every night before i go to bed for everything that happened to me that day in detail, I hold up my hands and ask Him to keep holding my hands and showing me the way, before anyone leaves our house i tell them that Hashem should protect and watch over them and only give them reason to smile the whole day. So in the end, if a boy does what i'm doing, and doesn't learn a whole day, is it rlly that bad?

basmelech

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Post Re: Is it worth it?
on: October 29, 2013, 10:35 PM

Chaykie, you sound like a very special person you do so many wonderful things. Yes Torah learning requires a lot of effort and yes I did not hear of someone acquiring the strength to lift 100 lb weight bars as a result of learning Torah. It makes us stronger spiritually, helping lift up 100's of peoples hearts instead. Each person should determine what is the most they can learn. Theres a great quote for this. "Its the quality which pleases G-d not the quantity". If three hours of learning a day is the most a person feels they can learn but theyre life is centered on Torah then that is very special and H-shem enjoys those three hours immensely. "Lo hamedrish haiker ela hamaseh" The most important part is applying the learning to our lives. H-shem gave us a gift, the Torah, and the more we learn and apply it the better we become.
Another interesting thought for all to ponder. ( heard from Rabbi Kahane) If the person we married would for sure discover the cure for cancer by moving to a foreign place,and by subsisting on very little wouldnt we all be willing to sacrifice for it? Imagine the cure that can help thousands of people!! How much more so for limud Torah. The world renews itself each day because of limud Torah! ( theres a source for this that he said but I dont know it, if anyone does please tell me) and its one of the pillars of the world. Read the stories of tzadikim they saved many lives, and uplifted many more. The more we appreciate the value of Torah the more we will be willing to encourage our husbands to learn it to the best of their ability. It is possible to learn many hours a day because if not H-shem, our creator, wouldnt have told us to make it our top priority. We are His creations after all (other creations lol ๐Ÿ˜‰ ) and He knows our needs best. But that doesnt mean a man cant work if his family needs parnassah on the contrary he should. But its what the focus is on that matters.

Lets live our lives so that we can all say after 120 years iy"H that Torah and its values were the focus of our lives. ๐Ÿ™‚

dazzleme21

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Post Re: Is it worth it?
on: October 30, 2013, 1:07 AM

A) the kesuba is NOT backward. i assume you were saying that in jest. it's ppl who are backward. society.
B) it's not that women are putting an extra curse on themselves. if a woman wants to go to college...get a career...it's not a curse for her, cuz she wants it. it's for the rest of us, who wouldn't necessarily go out and get some crazy degree/career, but won't be accepted in society as daughter in law material- it's potential mothers in law putting the extra curse on us. just to clarify. but i don't feel i need to give up on my emotional health to make a mother in law accept me. my mother in law, whoever she will end up being, will except me, major career or not, because she will not stoop to the level of such a shallow, stuck up society

right i meant that people are backward and dont go according to the kesuva not chasveshalom that the kesuva itself is backward. I mean the girls who want to support their hubs in learning put the double curse on themselves.They work and have the babies.. I honestly dont know how ppl. do it. I heard some crazy stories of woman who tried to do everything but unfortunatly werent able to and it was not a happy ending.People have to know what they can handle. there is yissacher and zevulan so everyone should decide what they can honestly do. can they work and be the best mom they could be while thyre hub learns?? or can they let theyre hubs work ,while they stay home and be the best mom they can be.(of course hub will be kovaya Itim) the ikkur)main thing is ,that people can raisee thyre children in the way of hashem so how do you want your children raised? some ppl have thye kids raised by babysitters while they work and thyre hub learns so who is gaining?? I think kids gain way more when they have their mothers home raising them!

basmelech

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Post Re: Is it worth it?
on: October 30, 2013, 10:33 AM

Yes dazzleme21 the main thing is to live a Torah life, which doesnt mean a wife must support her husband. If she chooses to do so then that is beautiful, if she wants her husband to learn and work but their life is led by Torah values and that is the atmosphere at home that is wonderful. Its what our #1 values are that matter, and thats what children pick up on.

1) If a father goes to work so that he can learn the children absorb that Torah is the #1 value.
Ex. I know someone who works and is kovei itim. Torah is the ikar in their house. They need parnassah so he and his wife work. The children know that they work because they need parnassah but Torah is what is valued there.

2)If the father goes to learn so that he can work, the children absorb that money is the #1 value to them, and they will put everything else below that c"v. In a family that the father works and the wife stays home but Torah isnt the ikar by them then the children will gain nothing the mother will be busy doing what she wants vs. what the kids need/want.

3)If the mother goes to work so the father can learn because that is her #1 value and his, the children will pick up on it. I know someone whos husband learns in kollel and she works. She sends her kids to a babysitter, and sometimes takes along her kids to work. She is willing to do so because Torah is her #1 value. Her kids are b"H some of the most amazing well brought up kids I know. Torah does that to people.

Its about which one is the means for which end. You choose.

life123

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Post Re: Is it worth it?
on: October 30, 2013, 12:47 PM

Wow, are you guys still arguing??? Does it never end???

chaykie

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Post Re: Is it worth it?
on: October 30, 2013, 6:40 PM

no life123- we aren't arguing! this is a good discussion! we all have our opinions and are able to state them and share and compare and stuff like that, that's what we're here for! totally right basmelech, it's quality, not quantity. i hear ya dazzleme, ur so right, and basmelech ur right about the values you give over. totally right.

basmelech

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Post Re: Is it worth it?
on: October 30, 2013, 9:14 PM

Yup no arguing just putting things in the right perspective. ๐Ÿ™‚

life123

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Post Re: Is it worth it?
on: October 30, 2013, 10:09 PM

Semantics... you all still believe what you believed in the beginning (though maybe with a bit of a plus or minus added to the equation), and you don't all believe the same thing. And you toss around words meant to prove each other sharply wrong - just skimming I see lots of ??? and long paragraphs and CAPITALS. But I know people like that... enjoy each other.

basmelech

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Post Re: Is it worth it?
on: October 30, 2013, 10:37 PM

I believe we do all believe in the same thing just each person has their own approach. Each post took a lot of time to write, because i checked to make sure its accurate and 100% true. I hope it will help someone somewhere! ๐Ÿ™‚

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