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Author Topic: Broken Engagements
laykay

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Post Broken Engagements
on: May 2, 2013, 1:12 PM

Latey I've been hearing of so many broken engagements! What do u think its the cause(s) of this???? And what are some ways girls can try and prevent it? Is it really purely destiny or are people focusing on the wrong things during dating? I fel that it's different than divorce in the sense that divorce is after you already lived with the person and u learn things about them that u could not have so easily detected during engagement and dating....

thinkingBY-
girl

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Post Re: Broken Engagements
on: May 2, 2013, 1:48 PM

There can be many reasons. Sometimes either party finds something out about the other during engagement that they didn't know before. A lot of the time though it is as simple as the girl feels pressured into getting engaged, either because "there's nothing wrong" (though nothing particularly right) or because, "doesn't she want to be married?!" There's this overall feeling that a girl needs to chap a boy or he'll be chapped up by someone else..."Who knows when the next good boy will come along? He's relatively normal, get engaged!" And then at some point during the engagement she realizes that she doesn't want to be with this guy forever. The most important thing during dating is to be honest with yourself and not get caught up in the emotions. Don't let anyone pressure you, and be sure to have a mentor to help you sort things out.

Bracha613

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Post Re: Broken Engagements
on: May 2, 2013, 3:25 PM

Quote from laykay on May 2, 2013, 1:12 PM
Latey I've been hearing of so many broken engagements! .

Me also. Do you think it's becoming more common? It would be helpful to know why they are being broken so we could make sure it doesn't happen to us!

iThink

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Post Re: Broken Engagements
on: May 2, 2013, 4:09 PM

Personally I view a broken engagement to be as much as a biggie like divorce. Both should be an absolute last resort. It's sad to hear about them.

feigy123

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Post Re: Broken Engagements
on: May 2, 2013, 7:12 PM

Quote from iThink on May 2, 2013, 4:09 PM
Personally I view a broken engagement to be as much as a biggie like divorce. Both should be an absolute last resort. It's sad to hear about them.

Why?

(I guess first start with why divorce should be a last resort, assuming no kids.)

patcha

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Post Re: Broken Engagements
on: May 2, 2013, 8:12 PM

It's caused by the shidduch crisis.

On the positive side, every person I know who had a broken engagement was married within 2 years.

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tsRight

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Post Re: Broken Engagements
on: May 2, 2013, 8:24 PM

Why is there such a stigma for divorcee's? In the non-frum world it's not a big thing that someone gets divorced. Could we discuss why in the frum world it is? Is it really such a bad thing? Why is that considered a negative thing - to consider dating someone who was divorced (with good reason)?

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tsRight

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Post Re: Broken Engagements
on: May 2, 2013, 8:25 PM

Don't get me wrong - I don't think it's good to get divorced! Just when there is a valid reason to, then...why is it such a stigma?

thinkingBY-
girl

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Post Re: Broken Engagements
on: May 2, 2013, 8:33 PM

It is a big deal to get divorced. Marriages are supposed to be forever, they're not disposable. You can't just shed a marriage when the magic is gone or the going gets rough. It's all about work. There are many gedolim who say that any marriage can be worked out between anyone if both parties are willing to work on it. That isn't to say that divorce isn't sometimes warranted and perhaps even required al pi halacha.

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tsRight

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Post Re: Broken Engagements
on: May 2, 2013, 8:36 PM

No, I agree with you 150% - that's not what I meant. I was saying, when there is a valid reason, like one of them had a mental illness but was stable and the spouse absolutely could not deal with that fact (which I think is a not really right, but...that's a discussion for another time), but most people view that as a valid reason. Or the spouse was abusive or the like.

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tsRight

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Post Re: Broken Engagements
on: May 2, 2013, 8:39 PM

My question was, "why in the frum world is it considered such a negative thing to be divorced, so much so that most people would rule out dating someone who is divorced without any other reasons to rule them out?"

iThink

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Post Re: Broken Engagements
on: May 2, 2013, 9:02 PM

Quote from feigy123 on May 2, 2013, 7:12 PM

Quote from iThink on May 2, 2013, 4:09 PM
Personally I view a broken engagement to be as much as a biggie like divorce. Both should be an absolute last resort. It's sad to hear about them.

Why?

(I guess first start with why divorce should be a last resort, assuming no kids.)

Divorce is a last resort because it should only be an option when there aren't any other healthy ones left. I believe marriage is a lifelong commitment, no matter what. People change, challenges come up, life happens, but a marriage should survive almost anything that life throws at you. And I view engagement as the beginning of that commitment.

iThink

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Post Re: Broken Engagements
on: May 2, 2013, 9:09 PM

My previous post should not be misconstrued as justification for the divorce stigma that exists in the frum community (although it's far less than it used to be). It's never our place to judge and certainly not to denigrate those who have chosen to divorce (or break an engagement).

feigy123

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Post Re: Broken Engagements
on: May 2, 2013, 10:00 PM

ithink, thinkingby,

I agree with you that divorce needs to be a last resort--but, I don't think you have said why yet. You say because marriage is a life-long commitment, but that just restates the conclusion. The reason I asked why for divorce, is because I don't think that the reasons apply to engagement.

I think it is appropriate and necessary for marriage to be a life-long commitment--by which I mean for divorce to be a last resort--for a double interrelated reason. That is, the nature of the spousal relationship and of the family unit relationship is such that not only is broken if it breaks, but it is lacking if it "could" break. By which I mean, that you can't really make yourself vulnerable to your spouse unless you can be confident that he/she will not reject you for anything. And kids cannot be secure in their family unit unless they know it is stable and will be there forever.

I'm not convinced that applies to engagement.

thinkingBY-
girl

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Post Re: Broken Engagements
on: May 2, 2013, 10:21 PM

No, I agree feigy. Broken engagements and divorce is not the same thing. Although engagement is a commitment, it is far less of a commitment than marriage. Also, a broken engagement happens for other reasons than a divorce would because the relationship is very different. I think it's a bracha when someone is able to know that it won't work out for whatever reason before marriage. This being said, engagement is still a commitment, so it cannot be broken without much deliberation and daas torah. Life lesson: don't get engaged unless you're absolutely certain. Don't let anyone pressure you, and if he's really the right one, he'll let you take your time figuring it out.

iThink

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Post Re: Broken Engagements
on: May 2, 2013, 11:06 PM

Quote from feigy123 on May 2, 2013, 10:00 PM
ithink, thinkingby,

I agree with you that divorce needs to be a last resort--but, I don't think you have said why yet. You say because marriage is a life-long commitment, but that just restates the conclusion. The reason I asked why for divorce, is because I don't think that the reasons apply to engagement.

I think it is appropriate and necessary for marriage to be a life-long commitment--by which I mean for divorce to be a last resort--for a double interrelated reason. That is, the nature of the spousal relationship and of the family unit relationship is such that not only is broken if it breaks, but it is lacking if it "could" break. By which I mean, that you can't really make yourself vulnerable to your spouse unless you can be confident that he/she will not reject you for anything. And kids cannot be secure in their family unit unless they know it is stable and will be there forever.

I'm not convinced that applies to engagement.

Quote from thinkingBYgirl on May 2, 2013, 10:21 PM
No, I agree feigy. Broken engagements and divorce is not the same thing. Although engagement is a commitment, it is far less of a commitment than marriage. Also, a broken engagement happens for other reasons than a divorce would because the relationship is very different. I think it's a bracha when someone is able to know that it won't work out for whatever reason before marriage. This being said, engagement is still a commitment, so it cannot be broken without much deliberation and daas torah. Life lesson: don't get engaged unless you're absolutely certain. Don't let anyone pressure you, and if he's really the right one, he'll let you take your time figuring it out.

It seems we agree on the nature of a marriage commitment. But you believe that an engagement doesn’t require the same. I’m curious how different an engagement commitment is from a marriage commitment to you. You told the guy you’d marry him. I’m assuming the only reason why you haven’t yet, is because you need some time to plan the wedding. How does this technicality make you any less commited?

The reason why I think that [i]both[i] divorce and broken engagements should be a last resort, is that I think that when a girl accepts a marriage proposal it’s a verbal commitment that is only technically (and halachically) different than the commitment that comes with marriage. It is technically difficult for a couple to get married on the same day that they agree to marry each other, but that doesn’t make it a “wait and see” period. If anyone needs to wait and see, by all means let them do that, before they agree to marry the guy. So the only thing that makes sense to me is saying that al pi halacha I’m not committed to this man, so it’s less of a big deal. But I would imagine that it calls for the same deliberation and daas torah as in the case of divorce.

thinkingBY-
girl

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Post Re: Broken Engagements
on: May 2, 2013, 11:10 PM

Correct on the latter, but there is a big difference between verbal commitment and halachik commitment, and that's the difference I think between engagement and marriage.

iThink

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Post Re: Broken Engagements
on: May 2, 2013, 11:29 PM

Quote from thinkingBYgirl on May 2, 2013, 11:10 PM
Correct on the latter, but there is a big difference between verbal commitment and halachik commitment, and that's the difference I think between engagement and marriage.

Agreed

feigy123

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Post Re: Broken Engagements
on: May 3, 2013, 8:33 AM

Oh, that's interesting. You are saying there is an element that you should stick together because you made a commitment and should honor that. And I was going with a totally different angle and explaining why I think that dynamic is important.

So it's good I asked why or we could have been talking past each other for years.

yitti

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Post Re: Broken Engagements
on: May 4, 2013, 4:05 PM

On a slightly different note, of course we will never know the real reason as it is usually hidden but could long engagements have what to do with it? Meaning that if an issue comes up once your married you deal with it because you got to. Whether it means sitting down with each other and having a serious, difficult conversation or going to a Rav or a marriage therapist perhaps. But if your only engaged..and you hang out enough with the guy you will see flaws, because every single person has flaws..but now, because your not married yet, why put in the effort? The quick fix is to just break up...

chaykie

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Post Re: Broken Engagements
on: May 5, 2013, 7:40 PM

ok ok, here's my view on this. girls want to get married. i agree with thinkingbygirls first post. sometimes the girl found out about something she didnt' know before, sometimes she felt pressured and really wasnt' ready. i do think tho that sometimes girls attitude is "well if it doesn't work out we'll just end it" and that is not the way its supposed to be. i actually have a friend who had 2 broken engagements within like since months of each other...she told me she went to a rebbetzin after the second time, and the rebbetzin told her that six girls had come to her that week with broken engagements. that is so sad. unfortunately, i don't think there is always a way to prevent it. you can't know if someone is hiding some important information from you beforehand, so why not get engaged? so i guess maybe the way to prevent it is total and 100% honesty. that's what a relationship is based upon anyway. who would want to marry someone who withholds important info from them? who knows what else he's hiding from you, or what kind of things he'll hide from you in the future?
But i don't agree with broken engagements and divorce being an equally big deal. divorce i believe is much harder and a much bigger deal. marriage is k'ilu set in stone. there's halachik documents signed already, possibly kids, a real relationship... at an engagement, there's no halachik documents signed, it's the beginning of what could be a real relationship, but it's not all the way there yet. The whole reason we don't sign tenaim until right before the wedding is because once that's signed, its very hard to break anything. (i think lubavitch does it at the engagement though, and i don't know why, but i'm no expert on that). imagine what ppl would have to go through if they signed it at the engagement. it would be so much harder. I am not saying that broken engagements are not hard, plz don't get me wrong. B"H i've never had one so i don't know what its like, and i hope to never know, and i don't wish it upon anyone. i hope we all find our true zivugim with clarity, and bkarov. I am not trying to invalidate the feelings and hardship that come with a broken engagement. just halachikly, i believe there is what to say about divorce being a bigger deal. and i agree with thinkingbygirl, its such a bracha to know before marriage that its not the right one.

chaykie

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Post Re: Broken Engagements
on: May 5, 2013, 7:42 PM

"within like since months of each other" sorry that should read "within like six months of each other..."

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