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Author Topic: Learning Boy Dilemma
Avigail

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Post Learning Boy Dilemma
on: May 22, 2013, 2:56 PM

I have this dilemma I would love to marry a boy who is a good learner but I feel that marrying a "learning boy" is such a responsibility. What if it's too hard for me and he has to leave kollel because of me?? Marrying a "learning boy" isn't just a Zechus it's a potential for the opposite also!
Does anyone else have this dilemma?

feigy123

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Post Re: Learning Boy Dilemma
on: May 22, 2013, 3:34 PM

Donny!

atararox

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Post Re: Learning Boy Dilemma
on: May 22, 2013, 4:15 PM

There are plenty of learning boys that are willing to learn short term or until they have to go out to work ti support a family and they are ok with that... It x have to be one extreme or the other! If you have the ability and interest to figure out Financial solutions ( I believe it should be a joint effort bet both sides) for the time being, than go for a learning boy and leave the rest up to Hashem. Not worth it to stress so much about the future.

basmelech

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Post Re: Learning Boy Dilemma
on: May 22, 2013, 4:21 PM

Hey the responsibility doesn't fall on you! H-shem supports His learning boys! 馃檪 But you have to really want it from deep inside your heart! If you feel that it is a Zechus then it will be enjoyable for you. Lemashal If someone knew that they are marrying a person that is on the verge of discovering the cure for cancer they would travel far and support them and do whatever it takes to help them find the cure! Le'havdil someone who is learning torah full time, they are keeping the ENTIRE WORLD in existence!! It's in the way you view it 馃槈
You just have to do your best and H-shem will do the rest! 馃榾

Cherry

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Post Re: Learning Boy Dilemma
on: May 22, 2013, 7:06 PM

There shouldn't be any full time learners. A man is meant to support his family. Noone is on the madrigal these days to do it lishma. It's peer pressure. If it wasn't a fad no one would do it. Of course we all love our Torah and we would make time for it. But trust me if not for this fluffy peer pressure in this generation it wouldn't be done. It annoys me how much pple deceive themselves.

chaykie

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Post Re: Learning Boy Dilemma
on: May 22, 2013, 8:52 PM

you want a learning boy or a ben torah, who loves learning and holds Torah in high esteem? they don't necessarily go hand in hand. not every boy is cut out for learning 24/7. is it really so bad if he works, and sets aside time to learn every day, because he loves learning? I think that's even better than someone who's just learning 24/7, cuz most of them end up getting burned out...but here if the boy is being honest with himself that he has a hard time learning full day, but he wants to learn as much as he can, and support his family, isn't that amazing??

basmelech

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Post Re: Learning Boy Dilemma
on: May 22, 2013, 8:53 PM

Cherry, please dont generalize people like that. There are many wonderful boys who do learn for the sake of learning. 馃檪 And there always will be. Some may learn out of peer pressure but iy"H they will continue because they really enjoy it! And yes a husband does have to support his family, but if the wife is willing to help out because she really values and wants him to learn then kol hakovod to her! 馃榾

Cherry

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Post Re: Learning Boy Dilemma
on: May 22, 2013, 9:06 PM

It's great if the guy comes to doing it lishma. And your right it usually goes that way. However it's harder for the woman to come to doing it lishma because she's out there trying her hardest to pull in the bucks. And her parents are the ones usually supporting. The torah says not to put yourself into a nissayon. So u see the whole thing is fluffy corruption. Because thts really not who this generation is. There are of course a minority of exceptions but not every brained washed seminary girl is really on tht level.

feigy123

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Post Re: Learning Boy Dilemma
on: May 22, 2013, 9:10 PM

Quote from Cherry on May 22, 2013, 7:06 PM
There shouldn't be any full time learners. A man is meant to support his family. Noone is on the madrigal these days to do it lishma. It's peer pressure. If it wasn't a fad no one would do it. Of course we all love our Torah and we would make time for it. But trust me if not for this fluffy peer pressure in this generation it wouldn't be done. It annoys me how much pple deceive themselves.

Trust you? Sorry, I don't trust you. I don't know what specialized knowledge you have that I should trust your opinion over mine. And my opinion is the opposite.

Cherry

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Post Re: Learning Boy Dilemma
on: May 22, 2013, 9:28 PM

Lol sorry 馃槓 of course not!! . I wrote it without realizing I wrote it. Lol just came out. 馃槙
Of course everyone is entitled to their opinions but at the end of the day there are certain points tht remain fact.

basmelech

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Post Re: Learning Boy Dilemma
on: May 22, 2013, 11:13 PM

Im with feigy123. Dont know about any certain points that remain fact, besides for that there will always be yidden who are learning 100% lishma (full time or part time only H-shem knows how much each person can do). 馃檪

Shaindy

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Post Re: Learning Boy Dilemma
on: May 22, 2013, 11:27 PM

Avigail I think the fact that you are thinking about this shows that you are fit to marry a learning boy. A girl who wants to marry a learning boy because she appreciates the value of Torah learning is a wonderful thing and something any boy would be lucky to have.
Nobody is perfect you just have to try your best!

TryToDoWha-
tsRight

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Post Re: Learning Boy Dilemma
on: May 23, 2013, 2:25 AM

Quote from Cherry on May 22, 2013, 9:06 PM
Because thts really not who this generation is. There are of course a minority of exceptions but not every brained washed seminary girl is really on tht level.

I agree with Cherry on that point. Most of the brainwashed seminary girls don't even realize that they are brainwashed. And some might learn it the hard way when they wake up with a sink full of dishes, no money in their account, a rack of debts, and a husband who is not helping. Most girls aren't truly cut out to be kollel wives. I know you will virulently disagree with me, but that is what I believe.
There was a time when I was thinking about how wonderful it would be to marry a learning boy - when I was in seminary and my menaheles was pressuring me. And I realized after that I was braiwashed.
I spoke to some kollel couples and they told me that "yes, there will be times when there is no food in your cabinet."
I think that a lot of girls think that they can handle all these nisyonos, or they just think that "Hashem will provide." I believe that Hashem controls everything, but we do have to put in our hishtadlus, and that means both partners have to do their hishtadlus. The Chofetz Chaim had a grocery store. And Reb Yaakov Yosef Herman from all for the Boss, had a wholesale fur business and when he moved to Israel later in his life he opened a store in Mea Shearim.
Don't say that the kollel couples of today are on a higher level than them.
And do you think it's fair to the parents? They work so their children don't have to. That's not healthy in so many ways.
It's not right that the girl should do everything. It says in the kesuba that a boy must support his wife. So why don't we get that??
It's far more important that he have a chashivus for learning then to stress that he learn 24/7.
Like someone said earlier they could get burned out.
And also, it's breeding a generation that has a lot of boys in learning but are only doing it so they can get a "good" girl. And "good" girls feel that they must marry a learning boy even if they don't want to support a kollel husband.
If they didn't push it so much in the seminaries and yeshivas there wouldn't be a shidduch crisis. There would be an even amount of good girls who really want to marry a working boy who sets aside sometime to learn every day and has a chashivus for learning. The boys would be able to work and learn which is what a lot of them truly want to do and know that they wouldn't be sacrificing getting a "good" girl.

Now there is the million dollar solution to the shidduch crisis.

Cherry

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Post Re: Learning Boy Dilemma
on: May 23, 2013, 3:31 AM

Quote from basmelech on May 22, 2013, 11:13 PM
Im with feigy123. Dont know about any certain points that remain fact, besides for that there will always be yidden who are learning 100% lishma (full time or part time only H-shem knows how much each person can do). 馃檪

Lol See there's a fact right there. 馃槈 and on the same topic there's another fact that there were gedolim greater than majority of the pple in this generation who like trytodowhatsright said had trades!

Cherry

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Post Re: Learning Boy Dilemma
on: May 23, 2013, 3:34 AM

Trytodowhatsright: couldnt agree more than I already do!!! Very well said!! 馃榾

iThink

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Post Re: Learning Boy Dilemma
on: May 23, 2013, 9:21 AM

Trytodowhatsright - very well said.

atararox

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Post Re: Learning Boy Dilemma
on: May 23, 2013, 10:00 AM

Yep agreed

basmelech

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Post Re: Learning Boy Dilemma
on: May 23, 2013, 3:58 PM

Tryingtodowhatsright you made a lot of very good points! 馃檪

"I agree with Cherry on that point. Most of the brainwashed seminary girls don't even realize that they are brainwashed. And some might learn it the hard way when they wake up with a sink full of dishes, no money in their account, a rack of debts, and a husband who is not helping. Most girls aren't truly cut out to be kollel wives. I know you will virulently disagree with me, but that is what I believe.
There was a time when I was thinking about how wonderful it would be to marry a learning boy - when I was in seminary and my menaheles was pressuring me. And I realized after that I was braiwashed.
I spoke to some kollel couples and they told me that "yes, there will be times when there is no food in your cabinet."
I think that a lot of girls think that they can handle all these nisyonos, or they just think that "Hashem will provide." I believe that Hashem controls everything, but we do have to put in our hishtadlus, and that means both partners have to do their hishtadlus. The Chofetz Chaim had a grocery store. And Reb Yaakov Yosef Herman from all for the Boss, had a wholesale fur business and when he moved to Israel later in his life he opened a store in Mea Shearim.
Don't say that the kollel couples of today are on a higher level than them.
And do you think it's fair to the parents? They work so their children don't have to. That's not healthy in so many ways.
It's not right that the girl should do everything. It says in the kesuba that a boy must support his wife. So why don't we get that??
It's far more important that he have a chashivus for learning then to stress that he learn 24/7."

A person should not learn too much that he feels burned out. Our Torah is all good, and all its ways are paths of pleasantness... The quality is what is important not the quantity! The effort not the achievement!
"Lo hamedrish haikar ela hamaseh" its the putting into action that counts in the end not the amount that was learned.

"And also, it's breeding a generation that has a lot of boys in learning but are only doing it so they can get a "good" girl. And "good" girls feel that they must marry a learning boy even if they don't want to support a kollel husband.
If they didn't push it so much in the seminaries and yeshivas there wouldn't be a shidduch crisis. There would be an even amount of good girls who really want to marry a working boy who sets aside sometime to learn every day and has a chashivus for learning. The boys would be able to work and learn which is what a lot of them truly want to do and know that they wouldn't be sacrificing getting a "good" girl.

Now there is the million dollar solution to the shidduch crisis."

Dont like this whole shidduch crisis thing. H-shem doesn't have a hard time making shidduchim. 馃槈 boys should work and learn if that is what they want to do, as tryingtodowhatsright said its where the values lie that is important! and have emunah that H-shem will find someone that is good for them. Same thing by girls. No one should feel that they are sacrificing anything!! Trust in H-shem that He will help you succeed, daven, and do your best hishtadlus. Nothing else is required. 馃檪

basmelech

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Post Re: Learning Boy Dilemma
on: May 23, 2013, 4:08 PM

Quote from Cherry on May 23, 2013, 3:31 AM

Quote from basmelech on May 22, 2013, 11:13 PM
Im with feigy123. Dont know about any certain points that remain fact, besides for that there will always be yidden who are learning 100% lishma (full time or part time only H-shem knows how much each person can do). 馃檪

Lol See there's a fact right there. 馃槈 and on the same topic there's another fact that there were gedolim greater than majority of the pple in this generation who like trytodowhatsright said had trades!

Cherry, I did not say it is wrong to have a trade. On the contrary it is required to have one if you need the income! The first question we get asked after 120 years iy"H is were you honest in business? So yes it is important. I did say that if the wife is willing to help out because she values his learning then kol hakavod to her! I was not saying that it is obligatory or necessary, just that it is very special if its possible for her to do so and she is willing to. 馃檪
I see that my first post on this topic might have been misunderstood, yes trust in H-shem that he will support, but I wrote, you do your best meaning that H-shem wants to see your hishtadlus first. and that is where work comes in to the picture. sorry about that 馃槙

patcha

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Post Re: Learning Boy Dilemma
on: May 23, 2013, 6:14 PM

Quote from basmelech on May 23, 2013, 4:08 PM
Cherry, I did not say it is wrong to have a trade. On the contrary it is required to have one if you need the income!

It is in Pirkei Avos: 讗讬讝讜讛讬 讚专讱 讬砖专讛 砖讬讘讜专 诇讜 讛讗讚诐, 讻诇 砖讛讬讗 转驻讗专转 诇注讜砖讬讛 讜转驻讗专转 诇讜 诪谉 讛讗讚诐

Income is great, don't get me wrong, but the important thing is to work and to feel good about yourself and your place in the world.

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Post Re: Learning Boy Dilemma
on: May 23, 2013, 6:22 PM

What do you guys think about this as a solution: the rabbanim in all the yeshivos should encourage the top 10-20% learners in their yeshivos (i.e. boys who really know how to learn, have a chashivus for it, want to make it their life, and are doing it lshaim shamayim.) to be full time learners, and the rest should be encouraged to work and learn. Or learn shana rishona.

As for the girls' seminaries, they should not stress that everyone should marry and it is the best thing to do - to marry a learning boy. They should stress how important Torah is, but also that a kollel family is not for everyone. There are some girls who are very pure and sincerely spiritual and can handle the life as a kollel wife. They should encourage these girls to marry a boy in kollel. They should be honest about the tribulations of being a kollel wife, but also how wonderful it is - to the girls who they know it is right for.

Thoughts?

Cherry

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Post Re: Learning Boy Dilemma
on: May 23, 2013, 6:50 PM

Well that would def solve the problem of girls getting guys they don't REALLY desserve. And guys getting girls they don't REALLY desserve.

TryToDoWha-
tsRight

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Post Re: Learning Boy Dilemma
on: May 23, 2013, 6:52 PM

Exactly.

patcha

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Post Re: Learning Boy Dilemma
on: May 23, 2013, 6:54 PM

Quote from Cherry on May 23, 2013, 6:50 PM
Well that would def solve the problem of girls getting guys they don't REALLY desserve. And guys getting girls they don't REALLY desserve.

Who are you to decide what I or anyone else deserves? It matters if you like each other. Not whether your resumes have a one to one correspondence.

iThink

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Post Re: Learning Boy Dilemma
on: May 23, 2013, 7:03 PM

Quote from TryToDoWhatsRight on May 23, 2013, 6:22 PM
What do you guys think about this as a solution: the rabbanim in all the yeshivos should encourage the top 10-20% learners in their yeshivos (i.e. boys who really know how to learn, have a chashivus for it, want to make it their life, and are doing it lshaim shamayim.) to be full time learners, and the rest should be encouraged to work and learn. Or learn shana rishona.

As for the girls' seminaries, they should not stress that everyone should marry and it is the best thing to do - to marry a learning boy. They should stress how important Torah is, but also that a kollel family is not for everyone. There are some girls who are very pure and sincerely spiritual and can handle the life as a kollel wife. They should encourage these girls to marry a boy in kollel. They should be honest about the tribulations of being a kollel wife, but also how wonderful it is - to the girls who they know it is right for.

Thoughts?

Great idea. Works beautifully for tens of thousands of chassidish boys and girls.

basmelech

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Post Re: Learning Boy Dilemma
on: May 23, 2013, 8:48 PM

Quote from TryToDoWhatsRight on May 23, 2013, 6:22 PM
What do you guys think about this as a solution: the rabbanim in all the yeshivos should encourage the top 10-20% learners in their yeshivos (i.e. boys who really know how to learn, have a chashivus for it, want to make it their life, and are doing it lshaim shamayim.) to be full time learners, and the rest should be encouraged to work and learn. Or learn shana rishona.

As for the girls' seminaries, they should not stress that everyone should marry and it is the best thing to do - to marry a learning boy. They should stress how important Torah is, but also that a kollel family is not for everyone. There are some girls who are very pure and sincerely spiritual and can handle the life as a kollel wife. They should encourage these girls to marry a boy in kollel. They should be honest about the tribulations of being a kollel wife, but also how wonderful it is - to the girls who they know it is right for.

Thoughts?

That is a fantastic idea Trytodowhatsright! and they should find others that are willing to be the zevulun in the relationship so that everyone can benefit! 馃檪

Cherry

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Post Re: Learning Boy Dilemma
on: May 23, 2013, 10:09 PM

Quote from patcha on May 23, 2013, 6:54 PM

Quote from Cherry on May 23, 2013, 6:50 PM
Well that would def solve the problem of girls getting guys they don't REALLY desserve. And guys getting girls they don't REALLY desserve.

Who are you to decide what I or anyone else deserves? It matters if you like each other. Not whether your resumes have a one to one correspondence.

obviously everyone would decide for themselves without being blinded by peer pressure and brainwashing determining their fate for them.

Bracha

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Post Re: Learning Boy Dilemma
on: May 23, 2013, 11:49 PM

Quote from TryToDoWhatsRight on May 23, 2013, 6:22 PM
What do you guys think about this as a solution: the rabbanim in all the yeshivos should encourage the top 10-20% learners in their yeshivos (i.e. boys who really know how to learn, have a chashivus for it, want to make it their life, and are doing it lshaim shamayim.) to be full time learners, and the rest should be encouraged to work and learn. Or learn shana rishona.

I once heard that a similar idea was said over to the Chazon Ish and he strongly revoked it saying that one can never know who could be a future Gadol!
I assume you all know the story with the Netziv that he was a trouble maker as a kid and he overheard his parents talking and saying that since learning is not for him they want to send him to a shoemaker to learn a trade. When the Netziv heard that he turned his life around and eventually became the Netziv!!!
People can always change!!

feigy123

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Post Re: Learning Boy Dilemma
on: May 23, 2013, 11:59 PM

From where do you get the notion though, that only the top 10-20% of learners are zoche to be lomdei torah?

The purpose of learning is not to become a gadol; it isn't only for future gedolim. The purpose of learning is to do the ratzon hashem and bring kiddush Hashem. It is for its own sake.

Cherry

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Post Re: Learning Boy Dilemma
on: May 24, 2013, 1:58 AM

Quote from feigy123 on May 23, 2013, 11:59 PM

The purpose of learning is not to become a gadol; it isn't only for future gedolim. The purpose of learning is to do the ratzon hashem and bring kiddush Hashem. It is for its own sake.

And in order to achieve that one needs to put in qaulity not quantity. If one can achieve a qaulity zits Fliesh 24 7 so be it! If not he should be honest with himself and be occupying his time elsewhere eg in the wrk force/ college and come back when ever he can REALLY give it his all and bring kiddush Hashem for it's own sake.

feigy123

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Post Re: Learning Boy Dilemma
on: May 24, 2013, 8:11 AM

Sure, no objection to that. I just question how you have decided that only 10% of learners have that quality which enables them to be productive. And that 90% should leave.

It sounded to me like you wanted only the smartest ones who would be gedolim to stay. If you want only the productive ones, then I am surprised at your assertion that that is only 10%,

patcha

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Post Re: Learning Boy Dilemma
on: May 24, 2013, 9:18 AM

Quote from Cherry on May 23, 2013, 10:09 PM

Quote from patcha on May 23, 2013, 6:54 PM

Quote from Cherry on May 23, 2013, 6:50 PM
Well that would def solve the problem of girls getting guys they don't REALLY desserve. And guys getting girls they don't REALLY desserve.

Who are you to decide what I or anyone else deserves? It matters if you like each other. Not whether your resumes have a one to one correspondence.

obviously everyone would decide for themselves without being blinded by peer pressure and brainwashing determining their fate for them.

I'm really confused. What do you mean by REALLY deserve?

TryToDoWha-
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Post Re: Learning Boy Dilemma
on: May 24, 2013, 9:35 AM

Quote from feigy123 on May 24, 2013, 8:11 AM
Sure, no objection to that. I just question how you have decided that only 10% of learners have that quality which enables them to be productive. And that 90% should leave.

It sounded to me like you wanted only the smartest ones who would be gedolim to stay. If you want only the productive ones, then I am surprised at your assertion that that is only 10%,

I was making up that number. It's just an idea/theory. It could obviously be more. I'm no expert in the statistics of quality learning boys...

chaykie

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Post Re: Learning Boy Dilemma
on: May 27, 2013, 9:16 PM

girls, girls. a boy can also become a gadol even if he's working. someone just mentioned above about gedolim who had small businesses. that didn't make them any less of a gadol. in my opinion, gadlus is knowing how to balance learning AND being there for your wife/kids/family. I think that's ultimate gadlus. I don't think many girls would appreciate getting married to a boy who isn't gonna lend a hand at all with anything. Of course, i'm saying this for girls who are perhaps a bit confused (like i was, just two yrs ago). I dunno, maybe this is just the way i feel. If a boy can balance his work life/family life/learning, that's gadlus. He's not learning at the expense of his family. Btw i also feel like sometimes this could be the prob with OTD kids. sometimes its that dad's learning all the time, finances are really tight, no one can deal, so let's let loose and find something else... just a thought, i may be totally wrong. Girls, if boys don't go to work, who's gonna support their daughters when they get married?? how many grandchildren can the grandparents support?? eventually, money is going to run short, and then some couple realizes that they have no idea how to handle the finances because "mommy and daddy have taken care of it for us until now". If you'd start off from the beginning, trying to figure things out together, COMMUNICATING... that enhances and deepens the relationship. In fact, my coworker recently told me (now she's been married for about 15 yrs) that about 5 yrs ago, some of her friends told her they were really stressed because support from their parents was just ending, and they have no idea what to do, how to deal with their new situation, and how to discuss it with their spouse. My coworker was so relieved that she didn't have those problems. Her parents didn't support her, her husband started to go for his accounting degree right before they had their first child, and now B"H they have a great relationship, cuz they had to figure things out on their own and actually communicate from the beginning, and they are doing pretty well B"H. She is my inspiration.

atararox

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Post Re: Learning Boy Dilemma
on: May 27, 2013, 9:54 PM

Chaykie - right on!

TryToDoWha-
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Post Re: Learning Boy Dilemma
on: May 27, 2013, 10:48 PM

You have sharp-shooter accuracy with those points. I especially like the one about the grandparents not being able to support the grandkids. (**

basmelech

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Post Re: Learning Boy Dilemma
on: May 27, 2013, 11:17 PM

Quote from chaykie on May 27, 2013, 9:16 PM
girls, girls. a boy can also become a gadol even if he's working. someone just mentioned above about gedolim who had small businesses. that didn't make them any less of a gadol. in my opinion, gadlus is knowing how to balance learning AND being there for your wife/kids/family.I think that's ultimate gadlus. I don't think many girls would appreciate getting married to a boy who isn't gonna lend a hand at all with anything. If a boy can balance his work life/family life/learning, that's gadlus. He's not learning at the expense of his family.

I agree wholeheartedly with "gadlus is knowing..." take a look at any gadul story! NOTHING is beneath them..from tying little boys shoelaces to getting their wives gifts. Go back to Rebbe Akiva he got his wife a golden crown!

The rest of your post is basically talking about how learning boys depend on others for support. I would like to politely disagree with that. (sorry i know im using someones phrase here not sure who it was exactly hope you dont mind. 馃槈 ) They depend on H-shem for support, and He sends someone to help them out. H-shem supports everyone so He will never abandon His learning boys. Yes a job is required if no other means of support is available at the time. BUT a person should always remember Who is the One that is supporting us every moment of every day! A Gadol is someone who learns and applies his learning in his day to day life. That is the ultimate gadlus! 馃榾

iThink

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Post Re: Learning Boy Dilemma
on: May 28, 2013, 1:18 AM

While we're debating ultimate gadlus, here's what I think: Doing what Hashem wants you to do, THAT is ultimate gadlus. There is no one right path to that end. For some of us, it means doing a kollel stint (or even a kollel life), for some it means balancing working and learning. As long as it's ratzon Hashem that determines and inspires these decisions, we can all reach ultimate gadlus. Good luck to us all.

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Post Re: Learning Boy Dilemma
on: May 28, 2013, 3:02 PM

Quote from iThink on May 28, 2013, 1:18 AM
While we're debating ultimate gadlus, here's what I think: Doing what Hashem wants you to do, THAT is ultimate gadlus. There is no one right path to that end. For some of us, it means doing a kollel stint (or even a kollel life), for some it means balancing working and learning. As long as it's ratzon Hashem that determines and inspires these decisions, we can all reach ultimate gadlus. Good luck to us all.

Well said!! No one needs to fit into a mold society has created, because not every person has the same kochos and tafkid. That being said, we all have the same general tachlis, which is to use our personal attributes to do develop our relationship with Hashem. Sometimes that doesn't mean learning. It can be hard to know exactly "what Hashem wants you to do," but it's all about following daas torah and finding your shveil hazahav. That's true for life in general and it's true for the "should I be learning or working" debate per the boy's side. From the girl's side it's about finding that guy who is on the path to help you use your kochos and find your way to build your relationship with G-d.

basmelech

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Post Re: Learning Boy Dilemma
on: May 28, 2013, 3:17 PM

Quote from iThink on May 28, 2013, 1:18 AM
While we're debating ultimate gadlus, here's what I think: Doing what Hashem wants you to do, THAT is ultimate gadlus. There is no one right path to that end. For some of us, it means doing a kollel stint (or even a kollel life), for some it means balancing working and learning. As long as it's ratzon Hashem that determines and inspires these decisions, we can all reach ultimate gadlus. Good luck to us all.

iThink you said it right!! Thank you for clarifying. 馃榾

bibliophil-
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Post Re: Learning Boy Dilemma
on: November 17, 2013, 12:35 PM

1) Ever heard of Pinchas Kehati? He was a banker in E"Y. He was niftar about thirty years ago and while he was working full-time, he wrote an extensive commentary to the Mishna that has become hugely popular and well-respected. I am not sure how many men could have done what he did even if they were learning full-time instead of working. If a boy is really gifted and really committed, he will achieve great heights in Torah no matter what.

2) Regarding kollel families being supported by other people-- yes, everything ultimately comes from Hashem, and yes, those who are in need should not be embarrassed to ask. But on the other hand, we should also recognize that taking money from other people is not the ideal situation even for the sake of Torah. Look at the tefillos for parnassah. What do we say? We ask Hashem to bless us with parnassah that we can earn independently, not by the hand of basar v'dam.

chaykie

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Post Re: Learning Boy Dilemma
on: November 17, 2013, 1:04 PM

perfect points bibliophile. right the whole point is "...lo lidei matnas basar vadam v'lo lidei halvaasam"- we say every day that we shouldn't need to take from other ppl...And thank you iThink- so true.

basmelech

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Post Re: Learning Boy Dilemma
on: November 17, 2013, 7:30 PM

i hear you bibliophile i like your line "If a boy is really gifted and really committed, he will achieve great heights in Torah no matter what." it has to be both gifted and commited.
on the other hand "...lo lidei matnas basar vadam v'lo lidei halvaasam" i think it means that we are asking H-shem to make us realize that no matter where the money is coming from that it is from Him. "lo lidei matnas basar vadam" we shouldn't come to chas veshalom think that it is the person who is "providing" for us and that we need the persons gifts. "Ki im liyadcha hamilaya hapesucha.." Because ultimately its all from H-shem. And we need to know that whatever situation a person is in its only H-shem who could give him what he needs. That is the bracha knowing Who the true Provider is, H-shem. It may seem like its coming from people and we need to show them hakaras hatov but its really H-shem who is giving us the presents.
About the kollel families that seem to need support i think they know that ultimately the support is H-shem. So their not relying on peoples kindness only H-shems kindness so that is the bracha! They turn to H-shem for help and He sends a worthy messenger to deliver it that is called not relying on people. (which is anyways not possible)
Lets appreciate His gifts! 馃檪

malkyg

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Post Re: Learning Boy Dilemma
on: April 1, 2014, 12:07 PM

HaShem helps those who help themselves. I'm not convinced guys in kollel even accomplish much for the following reason: the learning there is iyun, iyun, and more iyun. They don't cover any ground in most cases. I'd want a guy who worked for a living and who is kovea itim. I personally do learn every day, as much as I can, and I feel that a guy should try to be mesayem Shas, Mishnayos, sifrei halacha, etc. I'd want my man ideally to be able to deal with most sheeilos that came up at home, such as with yontiff, shabbos, and kashrus. I learn halacha mostly so that I know what to do myself, but I'd want a husband who prioritizes his understanding of halacha. Also, I'd want a guy who was into sifrei mussar, since it's very important that a guy be always working on his middos. I'd want a warm and hartzige guy who wasn't a lamdan, per se, but who still learned kol hatorah kula. over a guy who makes boich svaras, personally. (I know a lot about all this moiradik stuff since my brother is a rabbi, and I've always been more modern and into learning myself).

malkyg

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Post Re: Learning Boy Dilemma
on: April 1, 2014, 12:08 PM

HaShem helps those who help themselves. I'm not convinced guys in kollel even accomplish much for the following reason: the learning there is iyun, iyun, and more iyun. They don't cover any ground in most cases. I'd want a guy who worked for a living and who is kovea itim. I personally do learn every day, as much as I can, and I feel that a guy should try to be mesayem Shas, Mishnayos, sifrei halacha, etc. I'd want my man ideally to be able to deal with most sheeilos that came up at home, such as with yontiff, shabbos, and kashrus. I learn halacha mostly so that I know what to do myself, but I'd want a husband who prioritizes his understanding of halacha. Also, I'd want a guy who was into sifrei mussar, since it's very important that a guy be always working on his middos. I'd want a warm and hartzige guy who wasn't a lamdan, per se, but who still learned kol hatorah kula. over a guy who makes boich svaras, personally. (I know a lot about all this moiradik stuff since my brother is a rabbi, and I've always been more modern and into learning myself).

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