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Author Topic: Say no??
laykay

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Post Say no??
on: July 10, 2013, 9:20 PM

So after almost six months of nothing I get a yes from a boy but he's tot not what I'm looking for. He himself is not what I want, nor is his family the type I want to get involved in....but of course everyone says he's a very nice guy etc etc.
At what point do I just go out because its been too long since my last date lol ??
How do I know I'm not turning away my bashert? Is there such a thing?? If its bashert would hashem make me hear good things so I'll say yes? Or do I have go look away from impt things because maybe it's bashert?!?
Help! I hate this!

moori

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Post Re: Say no??
on: July 10, 2013, 9:25 PM

My general rule is that if there's nothing going on and there's no concrete reason to say no, go for it.

thinkingBY-
girl

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Post Re: Say no??
on: July 10, 2013, 9:35 PM

No date in 6 months or the fact that you just went out last week shouldn't play a factor in whether you agree to go out with someone. Each person needs to be considered in a vacuum. Will you marry someone who is really not what you're looking for just because no one better has entered your life in 6 months? I hope not! So why date him?

The question about passing up your bashert is a different thing entirely. You didn't go into detail so I don't have much to speak to, but is it something that you'd never be able to look past (like you want someone who is learning and this guy is working)? Don't compromise just because you haven't dated in 6 months!

Are you just looking to go out because it makes you feel better in some way? Wouldn't you rather only date the right one? Things can get complicated when you date someone who is way off hashkafically or someone who has different ruchniyus goals. Why do that to yourself?

laykay

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Post Re: Say no??
on: July 10, 2013, 9:50 PM

What is considered a concrete reason to say no? That is the question!

life123

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Post Re: Say no??
on: July 11, 2013, 12:08 AM

Most people have a list of must-haves, which they usually are willing to drop one of if the other things sound good enough....so that's normal. If your looking for learning and he isn't then don't unless your only saying that or you'll be upset. If you are looking for a professional and he is in a family business, probably not such a big deal. Want to share details?

laykay

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Post Re: Say no??
on: July 11, 2013, 8:39 AM

I'm looking for a short term learner but he's already finished his degree. He did Touro night classes while learning. But more than that his family situation bothers me. Is that a reason to say no? It's a very gray area cuz it's impt but not the main thing.

feigy123

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Post Re: Say no??
on: July 11, 2013, 9:09 AM

Quote from laykay on July 11, 2013, 8:39 AM
I'm looking for a short term learner but he's already finished his degree. He did Touro night classes while learning. But more than that his family situation bothers me. Is that a reason to say no? It's a very gray area cuz it's impt but not the main thing.

Would you have gone out with this same guy 2 years ago when he still had 2 years left?

laykay

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Post Re: Say no??
on: July 11, 2013, 9:26 AM

Forsure not because of his family situation. But now I'm older and I feel like I should be more open to different things... Maybe?!?

feigy123

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Post Re: Say no??
on: July 11, 2013, 9:41 AM

Well ok. But you should isolate the issue then. It isn't the learning that bothers you, but the family.

I think it's ok to say no because of family. But it's also ok to say yes despite family. Many people become much stronger from their family experiences, and determined to be a better parent than their parents were. Maybe he is; maybe he's worth the chance; maybe you're worth the chance.

laykay

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Post Re: Say no??
on: July 11, 2013, 9:59 AM

Youre right feigy123 but that combined with the not learning makes me hesitate. I agree with thinkingbygirl that each date should be taken seriously and it's no fun to go out when your starting with negative feelings and feel like you are settling. Where do I draw the line?

daysfan24

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Post Re: Say no??
on: July 11, 2013, 12:33 PM

LayKay- is there anything that you do like about him? I say if there's any chance that you can get over either issue if you like something else about him ( and that something else is great potential, ie. personality) Then why not? But, if there's nothing good you see from it and you really don't feel like you're gonna have a good time maybe you should say no. I, myself, have gone out plenty of times where I knew it was going to be a waste of time, ok all experiences are for the good, but I would've been better off without a few of them. So you really have to weigh your issues.
-Also if you think your gonna regret your decision, try one date. Of coarse, you don't want to waste your time, but at the same time, whats one date- if anything you just get to know someone and maybe he'd be good for one of your friends!

iThink

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Post Re: Say no??
on: July 11, 2013, 1:29 PM

Okay, here's my two cents: I'm getting the sense (and please correct me if I'm off base here) that the reason you're uncomfortable about going out with this guy is not so much because you're convinced it'll be a waste of time, but because the idea of this guy being your bashert feels kind of strange. In other words, sometimes we get stuck with a certain image of the guy we want to marry, and it can be hard to consider shidduchim which require some tweaking of that image. Take this guy, for example. You want someone who is still learning, and he isn't. You want a "normal" family, and his has a "situation." The question is, can you honestly say that these are both deal breakers for you? Or does it simply not fit that image? It's important for you to figure this out, because if there's a chance that he's the right guy in the ways that really matter to you, you may want to check him out.

Good luck to you 🙂

life123

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Post Re: Say no??
on: July 11, 2013, 1:38 PM

Just because I guy went to college doesn't mean he can't learn....does he still have a cheshek?

patcha

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Post Re: Say no??
on: July 11, 2013, 2:09 PM

If it's not impossible that you'll like him in real life as opposed to on paper, you should not go out.

patcha

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Post Re: Say no??
on: July 11, 2013, 2:10 PM

*correction: I mean you should go out.

laykay

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Post Re: Say no??
on: July 11, 2013, 2:38 PM

So basically I dated working and learning guys in the past and the learning guys were all more up my alley than the working ones. I know I need a yeshiva guy and today majority of sincere yeshiva guys stay in learning till they are married at least. As we have previously discussed Donny's dont exist. So besides for the family sitch that I x like.... I do feel that I essentially need a learning guy as past experience has proven.... Do I still give this a shot or do I just say no based on the fact that he is not a "learning boy" and Although no family is perfect, this one on particular is something i'd rather not start with BUT he's a really nice guy etc etc and smart ....and he has a set Seder

life123

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Post Re: Say no??
on: July 11, 2013, 2:59 PM

Sounds like you're undecided.... 😀 😀 If you haven't dated in ages, chances are you don't hate the idea of dating again...and if you say no you'll probably regret it a little if you don't get anyone else soon... so why not try it? Sounds like he is a mentch so it probably won't be a horrible experience.

daysfan24

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Post Re: Say no??
on: July 11, 2013, 5:30 PM

Laykay- I think you might have answered your own question because you said you don't think you would be able to overlook it. No one can make that decision for you, if that is what you feel. If it were up to me, I'm more open to these things and I prefer someone who's working/learning. I do have to say there's nothing wrong with going on one date in order to solidify your doubts. If you're really unsure- just go on one date to see where he's holding. He might take learning very seriously and do it everyday despite the fact he works. I'm not sure what exactly your needs are or your wants for someone who's learning. Therefore, it's not anyone's place to say you should or shouldn't go out with him.

Also I know- when I go on dates and I see what I want and need, it really does help in making my decisions. However, sometimes not everything is black and white and you do have to be somewhat flexible when it comes to dating. Not saying you should give up on your principles/desires in your basheret, but sometimes it's really good just going in with a open mind if everything else adds up. The fam part- which I know isn't the main concern, but I do have to say maybe once you hear his explanation on it, you might have a different perception of it. If you like him enough, you can be surprise in what you can over look. Again, that's only for you to decide either way.

shaynapuni-
m

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Post Re: Say no??
on: July 11, 2013, 7:06 PM

Laykay - I know that many have said above that the fact that you havent had a date in 6 months is not a reason to go out with someone or "lower your standards"; but the truth is if you are not picking him over someone else right now why not give him a shot if it all sounds good except for the family situation? I dont know exactly what you mean by family sit, but lets say for example his parents are divorced and you always envisioned you kids having loving bubby and zaidy to go to for yomtov, perhaps if you really do like him you might realize that his family situation is not his fault nor is he any worse off because of it, and really your kids one day (iy'h soon 😀 ) would be totally healthy in that situation as well... just my thoughts...

laykay

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Post Re: Say no??
on: July 11, 2013, 7:59 PM

He's not exactly what i want shayna punim, even the fanily situation aside. as I mentioned before I do want a learning boy and he is now working. And I am not basing this on peer pressure. I dated both types and I learned that I truly do want a learning guy- that hashkafic part. I said already before that his family situation combined wit the No longer learning full time is what's making me hesitate. But then I think to myself maybe im passing up the one- even though on paper he is not what I would go for maybe that what's meant for me.

shaynapuni-
m

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Post Re: Say no??
on: July 11, 2013, 8:37 PM

I dont think that thinking about what is "meant for you" is a proper hashkafa, only Hashem knows that and your job is just to do what's right...

(sorry if this isn't helpful because it is kind of circular logic because you are trying to figure out what is "right" but I think it does make some sense... hopefully... 🙂 )

laykay

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Post Re: Say no??
on: July 15, 2013, 4:51 PM

I'm still looking into this! I seriously was never so confused!!!! He sounds like a dream Donny! Wants to pursue a career and is in college but super solid and learns everyday! Hes good lookong tall and has amazing middos etc etc We heard unbelievable things about him how pulled through with a sad family situation...
But his fam sitch is bad. His father not so normal a little anti religious they dont have shaychus with hom and some sibs not so frum and major financial difficulty....can such a guy really exist or am I living in dreamland???

patcha

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Post Re: Say no??
on: July 15, 2013, 4:54 PM

Date him and tell us!

laykay

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Post Re: Say no??
on: July 15, 2013, 5:47 PM

I prob won't date him. But objectively do u guys think this can be? To escape such a tragic childhood with hardly any scars??

patcha

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Post Re: Say no??
on: July 15, 2013, 5:59 PM

To quote my grandmother: "What doesn't kill you makes you stronger."

Firstly, it doesn't sound like such a tragic childhood. It sounds difficult but something that can be overcome, depending on the other influences in his life and his resilience.

Secondly, maybe you can admire those 'scars' as a sign of his strength. Maybe these are areas that he's worked on and recognized and continues working on and will make him an outstanding person, husband, and father.

Why would you assume that he's irreparably flawed without at least finding out if he's grown from his experiences?

feigy123

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Post Re: Say no??
on: July 15, 2013, 6:00 PM

Nu, and your house? You have any glass windows?

laykay

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Post Re: Say no??
on: July 15, 2013, 6:45 PM

So I did plenty of research and everyone said rlly good things. So basically your saying that Donny's do exist and even with the messed up upbringing it's still possible that he's the perfect Donny and not the Donny who needs major therapy. Not sure what u mean by glass windows feigy 123. But bh I have a loving wholesome family and the person who redt Shidduch did not know the extent of his family issues. And patcha what Is not tragic about a father who bad mouths Judaism and then leaves his wife and children with no money and stability... I can't imagine something much worse for a situation that a kid can grow up in ...

iThink

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Post Re: Say no??
on: July 15, 2013, 8:58 PM

I prob won't date him. But objectively do u guys think this can be? To escape such a tragic childhood with hardly any scars?

Yes it's possible. It rarely happens, but when it does, it makes for some really awesome people.

feigy123

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Post Re: Say no??
on: July 15, 2013, 10:44 PM

I'm saying that sure he has some lasting effects. But are you saying that you are emotionally perfect? I don't believe that. (I'll believe you don't know what your own issues are if you haven't been to therapy, that I'll believe.)

I would never date someone who hadn't been to therapy.

iThink

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Post Re: Say no??
on: July 15, 2013, 11:53 PM

Lol feigy r u serious?

feigy123

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Post Re: Say no??
on: July 16, 2013, 2:48 PM

I'm half serious.

People who have been to therapy are more in touch with themselves, and are more emotionally stable than people who haven't. They have already found out what their skeletons are. You don't need to worry that in a few years the skeletons are gonna start peeking up when mow the lawn.

I think everyone should go to therapy even if they don't think there is any reason for them to go.

patcha

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Post Re: Say no??
on: July 16, 2013, 3:26 PM

Agree with feigy 100%.

laykay

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Post Re: Say no??
on: July 16, 2013, 3:47 PM

He hasn't been to therapy

feigy123

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Post Re: Say no??
on: July 16, 2013, 4:44 PM

How do you know? People don't exactly put it on their resume.

Although that's a good idea. Too bad I never thought of it. Think it would be better to put my therapist as a reference, or maybe under education, or maybe under activities?

shaynapuni-
m

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Post Re: Say no??
on: July 16, 2013, 5:34 PM

i agree that therapy can often be a big plus, and also weekend therapy "workshops" like thepossibleyou and calloftheshofar, which I know firsthand has had a profound impact on many girls and also guys too I'm sure

Avigail

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Post Re: Say no??
on: July 16, 2013, 9:55 PM

Quote from feigy123 on July 16, 2013, 2:48 PM
People who have been to therapy are more in touch with themselves, and are more emotionally stable than people who haven't.

That's a pretty drastic statement. I would think that people who went to therapy probably had a reason for going and their problems might crop up again.

iThink

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Post Re: Say no??
on: July 16, 2013, 10:39 PM

This is funny, actually. I'm pretty wary of people who readily turn to therapists for advice or help with personal issues. Unfortunately they have messed up too many people in too many ways. That's not to say that all therapists do more harm than good, but I believe that is the case for many, maybe even most.

As far as being emotionally touch thanks to therapy, I believe some people are born with emotional awareness.

feigy123

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Post Re: Say no??
on: July 16, 2013, 11:19 PM

Quote from iThink on July 16, 2013, 10:39 PM
Unfortunately they have messed up too many people in too many ways. That's not to say that all therapists do more harm than good, but I believe that is the case for many, maybe even most.

What is your basis for that statement?

iThink

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Post Re: Say no??
on: July 16, 2013, 11:49 PM

The handful of people I know who've gone for therapy have in the best case wasted thousands of dollars (with nothing to show for it) and in the worst case ended up more messed up than they were to begin with.

thinkingBY-
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Post Re: Say no??
on: July 16, 2013, 11:52 PM

Quote from iThink on July 16, 2013, 10:39 PM
This is funny, actually. I'm pretty wary of people who readily turn to therapists for advice or help with personal issues. Unfortunately they have messed up too many people in too many ways. That's not to say that all therapists do more harm than good, but I believe that is the case for many, maybe even most.

As far as being emotionally touch thanks to therapy, I believe some people are born with emotional awareness.

It's comments like this that deter people from seeking help when they can really benefit from therapy. It really depends what someone's issues are, but how can you even suggest that most therapists do more harm than good?! What kind of experience are you making this statement from? Please don't make blanket statements like this.

thinkingBY-
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Post Re: Say no??
on: July 16, 2013, 11:55 PM

Quote from iThink on July 16, 2013, 11:49 PM
The handful of people I know who've gone for therapy have in the best case wasted thousands of dollars (with nothing to show for it) and in the worst case ended up more messed up than they were to begin with.

And I know MANY people who have benefited tremendously from therapy. It's really about finding the right therapist and depending on the issue, being committed to change. Therapy isn't magic, the person needs to work hard too.

iThink

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Post Re: Say no??
on: July 16, 2013, 11:59 PM

Quote from thinkingBYgirl on July 16, 2013, 11:52 PM

Quote from iThink on July 16, 2013, 10:39 PM
This is funny, actually. I'm pretty wary of people who readily turn to therapists for advice or help with personal issues. Unfortunately they have messed up too many people in too many ways. That's not to say that all therapists do more harm than good, but I believe that is the case for many, maybe even most.

As far as being emotionally touch thanks to therapy, I believe some people are born with emotional awareness.

It's comments like this that deter people from seeking help when they can really benefit from therapy. It really depends what someone's issues are, but how can you even suggest that most therapists do more harm than good?! What kind of experience are you making this statement from? Please don't make blanket statements like this.

I'm not against therapy per se. But I've seen some of their handiwork and I feel that people should be extremely careful when choosing a therapist. Especially frum people.

iThink

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Post Re: Say no??
on: July 17, 2013, 12:03 AM

If you read my first comment on this issue I said that I'm "wary of people who readily turn to therapists for advice..." All I'm saying is people should be super careful. What's so terrible about a healthy dose of caution here?

thinkingBY-
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Post Re: Say no??
on: July 17, 2013, 12:57 AM

Quote from iThink on July 17, 2013, 12:03 AM
If you read my first comment on this issue I said that I'm "wary of people who readily turn to therapists for advice..." All I'm saying is people should be super careful. What's so terrible about a healthy dose of caution here?

Nothing is wrong with caution, in fact, it's important to be a cautious consumer and not allow someone in a position of power to dictate your life. That being said, you spoke blanketly about all therapists saying that most of them waste your money and time and/or ruin people's lives. Why should your bad experience deter people from finding those therapists that are truly helpful? As a side point, people don't usually go to a therapist for "advice." Therapy is so much more than that. As per your point about people, especially frum people, being "extremely careful" when choosing a therapist, are you referring to frum people being cautious as the consumer or being cautious when choosing a frum therapist?

iThink

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Post Re: Say no??
on: July 17, 2013, 1:21 AM

Quote from thinkingBYgirl on July 17, 2013, 12:57 AM

Quote from iThink on July 17, 2013, 12:03 AM
If you read my first comment on this issue I said that I'm "wary of people who readily turn to therapists for advice..." All I'm saying is people should be super careful. What's so terrible about a healthy dose of caution here?

Nothing is wrong with caution, in fact, it's important to be a cautious consumer and not allow someone in a position of power to dictate your life. That being said, you spoke blanketly about all therapists saying that most of them waste your money and time and/or ruin people's lives. Why should your bad experience deter people from finding those therapists that are truly helpful? As a side point, people don't usually go to a therapist for "advice." Therapy is so much more than that. As per your point about people, especially frum people, being "extremely careful" when choosing a therapist, are you referring to frum people being cautious as the consumer or being cautious when choosing a frum therapist?

What can I say? In the handful of experiences I was involved in they did more harm than good. I'm sure there are some good ones out there despite the fact that I have yet to meet any of them. I am simply stating what I believe is in the best interest of those considering therapy.

People don't usually go to therapists for advice, and how sad that they still feel qualified to dispense the same even when it's way above their pay grade.

I was referring to both. Frum people may not realize that there are halachic considerations with some of the issues they may be dealing with. Also, many issues can be handled with spiritual guidance, and therapists will rarely recognize or provide that. And then there is the concern about frum therapists who will make torah hashkafa work around their professional training instead of the other way around.

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