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Author Topic: Learning Torah
Bracha613

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Post Learning Torah
on: June 5, 2013, 8:30 PM

I don't want to sound like a newcomer to Judiasm 馃榾 but I've been wondering lately? What's the point of boys learning Torah is it just so we could know what to do? Or is it more then that? We say in Birchos Krias Shema 讜转谉 讘诇讬讘谞讜 讘讬谞讛 诇讛讘讬谉 讜诇讛砖讻讬诇... 诇诇诪讜讚 讜诇诇诪讚 诇砖诪讜专 讜诇注砖讜转 (I've seen it other places also just can't recall where) doesn't that sound like the point is to know what to do?? If so does it matter so much if we marry a learning boy? Or if he's learning?
Can't they know what to do by learning part time?

rosepetal5

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Post Re: Learning Torah
on: June 5, 2013, 8:42 PM

Quote from Bracha613 on June 5, 2013, 8:30 PM
I don't want to sound like a Baalas teshuva

What do you mean by that? There is absolutely nothing wrong with being a Baal/Baalas Teshuva. In fact, it's a wonderful thing.
I would reword that if I were you.

basmelech

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Post Re: Learning Torah
on: June 5, 2013, 9:21 PM

Torah is the instruction manuel for people to become the best they can become. It was given to us by H-shem who created us and therefore knows exactly what we need. the more a person studies the Torah the better they will know how to be able to function properly.
Example: watchmaker gives his watches a manuel on how to take care of themselves. They need to study it well. After all their life depends on it!! 馃槈
"Lo hamedrish haikar ela hamaseh"The main thing is to put the learning into action. 馃檪 Someone who learns and applies what he learns that is what H-shem wants us to do.

patcha

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Post Re: Learning Torah
on: June 5, 2013, 9:29 PM

We learn Torah because Hashem told us to (see Shema 讜讛讬讜 讛讚讘专讬诐 讛讗诇讛 讗砖专 讗谞讜讻讬 诪爪讜讱 讛讬讜诐 注诇 诇讘讘讱 讜砖谞谞转诐 诇讘谞讬讱 讜讚讘专转 讘诐 ... 讜诇诪讚转诐 讗讜转诐 讗转 讘谞讬讻诐 诇讚讘专 讘诐 讘砖讘转讱 讘讘讬转讱 讜讘诇讻转讱 讘讚专讱 讜讘砖讻讘讱 讜讘拽讜诪讱 )

And that applies to both men and women.

iThink

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Post Re: Learning Torah
on: June 5, 2013, 9:46 PM

Quote from Bracha613 on June 5, 2013, 8:30 PM
I don't want to sound like a newcomer to Judiasm 馃榾 but I've been wondering lately? What's the point of boys learning Torah is it just so we could know what to do? Or is it more then that? We say in Birchos Krias Shema 讜转谉 讘诇讬讘谞讜 讘讬谞讛 诇讛讘讬谉 讜诇讛砖讻讬诇... 诇诇诪讜讚 讜诇诇诪讚 诇砖诪讜专 讜诇注砖讜转 (I've seen it other places also just can't recall where) doesn't that sound like the point is to know what to do?? If so does it matter so much if we marry a learning boy? Or if he's learning?
Can't they know what to do by learning part time?

Not every part of Torah can be practically applied to daily life, so there is certainly another point to it. Torah is the medium through which Hashem reveals himself to us. It's the way He communicates to us how to live our lives (not just in areas of halacha, but even with relationships, chinuch, philosophy, personal growth, parnassah, etc.). This brings us close to Him which is, after all, the ultimate relationship and purpose of life.

According to halacha (IIRC), if one does not have time to engage in extended Torah study every day, he should learn those things that are relevant to day-to-day life. However, based on the above explanation there is plenty to be gained from those studies that are not necessarily immediately applicable.

Bracha613

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Post Re: Learning Torah
on: June 5, 2013, 9:51 PM

Hmm So you all seem to be saying that there is another point besides knowing what to do and that is that it brings us closer to Hashem. Is that right?

Quote from iThink on June 5, 2013, 9:46 PM
According to halacha (IIRC)

What's that?

basmelech

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Post Re: Learning Torah
on: June 5, 2013, 10:34 PM

Yes its true both of it. Knowing what to do is kind of a major point. Cause if we dont know what to do were in big trouble. b"H you dont know how terrible a lifestyle without Torah Is... No meaning, no purpose, murder, robbery, adultery (what stops someone who doesnt have Yiras Shamayim from commiting these sins?) I would get seriously depressed. Shelo asani goy, blessed are You H-shem that I am not one. the Torah shows us how to live a proper life. The more we study and adhere to Its ways the more meaningful and purposeful our life becomes. That leads to the second point which is that it brings us closer to H-shem and that is what we all really want. 馃榾

iThink

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Post Re: Learning Torah
on: June 5, 2013, 11:56 PM

Quote from Bracha613 on June 5, 2013, 9:51 PM
Hmm So you all seem to be saying that there is another point besides knowing what to do and that is that it brings us closer to Hashem. Is that right?

Quote from iThink on June 5, 2013, 9:46 PM
According to halacha (IIRC)

What's that?

Yup, that the idea.

IIRC-if I remember correctly

basmelech

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Post Re: Learning Torah
on: June 5, 2013, 11:58 PM

Cute iThink! I thought it was a source. It sounds so official. 馃槈

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Lea

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Post Re: Learning Torah
on: June 6, 2013, 10:19 AM

Bracha, this concept of boys learning full time is recent鈥攊t is probably the first time in history that it was possible for them to do so without starving to death. Of course learning "part-time," or even an hour a day, is a madreiga. "Derech eretz kadma l'Torah," means the way of the world, and the way of the world for centuries is that a man has to work to support his family, and anyone who is learning full time is exempt from the commandment to marry.

Torah is supposed to be a guide for living in the greater world, and for it to be passed on. There are many ways one can become close to Hashem.

feigy123

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Post Re: Learning Torah
on: June 6, 2013, 10:41 AM

Quote from Princess Lea on June 6, 2013, 10:19 AM
Bracha, this concept of boys learning full time is recent鈥攊t is probably the first time in history that it was possible for them to do so without starving to death.

It is not recent. The gemara talks about a certain amorah who went away to learn, and his wife asked him what she would feed the kids, and he told her to pick plants in the swamp. And left.

It is recent that there are so many doing it, and recent that it is so easy financially. But the ideal that men should be learning Torah as much as they can and not being involved in the world, is as old as spending 40 years in the midbar doing precisely that.

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Lea

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Post Re: Learning Torah
on: June 6, 2013, 12:44 PM

Quote from feigy123 on June 6, 2013, 10:41 AM

Quote from Princess Lea on June 6, 2013, 10:19 AM
Bracha, this concept of boys learning full time is recent鈥攊t is probably the first time in history that it was possible for them to do so without starving to death.

It is not recent. The gemara talks about a certain amorah who went away to learn, and his wife asked him what she would feed the kids, and he told her to pick plants in the swamp. And left.

It is recent that there are so many doing it, and recent that it is so easy financially. But the ideal that men should be learning Torah as much as they can and not being involved in the world, is as old as spending 40 years in the midbar doing precisely that.

That's a raayeh? Just out of curiosity, would you refer a man in glowing terms who would do something like that nowadays? Therefore, it has no bearing on this conversation.

You know why Moshe had to die before bnei Yisroel reached Eretz Yisroel? Because the previous 40 years was miraculous, unnatural, and not meant forever. Moshe was miraculous, unnatural, and not meant forever. Hashem then tells them: now, you will have to do your part. You will have to fight. I will help you, but the miracles are over. Now life will be about teva.

A kallah circles her husband, my teacher once said, because he will go out into the world, and she will be his protection. The way things are going now it should be the reverse.

This world was not given to us to avoid. It was given to us to use, and to spread our light unto the nations. The world is not shameful or terrifying. It just has to be viewed and utilized properly.

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Post Re: Learning Torah
on: June 6, 2013, 1:34 PM

I remember learning in seminary that (just like tzinus is for women), leimud torah is for men. It is their special mitzvah in which they connect to Hashem and earn s'char. It is possible for a man to fulfill his learning quota by saying kriyas shema every day; however, that would be akin to him living on a starvation diet. Man can survive on bread and water alone, but ideally he should eat other foods that provide him with other vitamins and nutrients.

Yes, the Torah was meant as a guidebook, a means for us to know how to live. However, they say that one who learns Torah not only has it good in Olam Haba, but he enjoys Olam Hazeh so much more.

Different people were given different kochos, and some people can sit and learn the whole day, and they have the emunah that Hashem will take care of their physical needs. Yes, they must do hishtadlus too, but the more bitachon, the less hishtadlus necessary. Hashem takes care of those that sit and learn his Torah. The person may not be able to live on standards of the one who works for a living, but then he doesn't need that...he's chosen a different type of lifestyle.

I think it's a beautiful thing that so many people have chosen to sit and learn (and there are those who want to be part of that and marry these individuals), but the question is, are they being realistic about what this means for them and their family, and what lifestyle this lends itself to??

There is always an ideal, but our world is not that, otherwise moshiach would have come already. We can only make do with what we have. That means that some of us can sit and learn (or marry those that do), while others can earn s'char and work on their yiraas shamayim without being (married to) a full-time learner. As long as we use Torah as our guide, recognize it as the blueprints of this world, I think we're on the right track.

basmelech

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Post Re: Learning Torah
on: June 6, 2013, 3:59 PM

[b]Quote from feigy123 on June 6, 2013, 10:41

It is not recent. The gemara talks about a certain amorah who went away to learn, and his wife asked him what she would feed the kids, and he told her to pick plants in the swamp. And left.

Please right the source i want my father to check this up. It came out sounding like he was a rasha chas veshalom. I dont think it went like that.

Avigail

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Post Re: Learning Torah
on: June 6, 2013, 4:01 PM

[b]Quote from feigy123 on June 6, 2013, 10:41

It is not recent. The gemara talks about a certain amorah who went away to learn, and his wife asked him what she would feed the kids, and he told her to pick plants in the swamp. And left.

Fiegy always knows the best Gemaras 馃槢

feigy123

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Post Re: Learning Torah
on: June 7, 2013, 11:14 AM

Quote from basmelech on June 6, 2013, 3:59 PM

[b]Quote from feigy123 on June 6, 2013, 10:41

It is not recent. The gemara talks about a certain amorah who went away to learn, and his wife asked him what she would feed the kids, and he told her to pick plants in the swamp. And left.

Please right the source i want my father to check this up. It came out sounding like he was a rasha chas veshalom. I dont think it went like that.

注专讜讘讬谉 讻讘
I actually saw it in a mussar sefer (I think mesilas yesharim), but I just googled the words and that's what came up.

google is the best for torah research. if you remember like two words, you just google it and almost always hit what you need.

patcha

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Post Re: Learning Torah
on: June 7, 2013, 12:40 PM

basmelech, why don't you check it up? There's no issur to look inside a gemara.

feigy123

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Post Re: Learning Torah
on: June 7, 2013, 12:51 PM

Quote from patcha on June 7, 2013, 12:40 PM
basmelech, why don't you check it up? There's no issur to look inside a gemara.

Here it is. http://www.hebrewbooks.org/shas.aspx?mesechta=3&daf=22&format=pdf
The discussion starts on the last line of the previous page and is about how you find torah in a person who is cruel to his children and wife like an 注讜专讘 The gemara is bringing this story as a demonstration.

And because I'm a googling genius, I found the mussar sefer where I originally read it. It is in Orchos tzadikim, shaar haachzarius, under the heading achzarius nechona (proper cruelty). http://he.wikisource.org/wiki/%D7%90%D7%95%D7%A8%D7%97%D7%95%D7%AA_%D7%A6%D7%93%D7%99%D7%A7%D7%99%D7%9D_%D7%A9%D7%A2%D7%A8_%D7%94%D7%90%D7%9B%D7%96%D7%A8%D7%99%D7%95%D7%AA#.5B.D7.90.D7.9B.D7.96.D7.A8.D7.99.D7.95.D7.AA_.D7.A0.D7.9B.D7.95.D7.A0.D7.94.5D

Bracha

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Post Re: Learning Torah
on: June 7, 2013, 1:31 PM

I think it's important to see the Orchos Tzadikim and how he explains it. This is what he says
讻讬 讝讛 讚讘专 讘专讜专: 讛诪专讞诐 注诇 讘谞讬讜 讬讜转专 诪讚讬, 诪转讜讱 讻讱 讞讜砖讘 诇讛专讜讬讞 诪诪讜谉. 讜诇讗 讬讞讜砖 讗讬讱 讬讘讜讗 诇讜 讛诪诪讜谉. 讘讗讬住讜专 讗讜 讘讛讬转专, 讻讬 讛讗讛讘讛 诪拽诇拽诇转 讛砖讜专讛. 讜讙诐 诪转讜讱 讛讟专讚讛 砖讛讜讗 讟讜专讞 讬讜诐 讜诇讬诇讛 诇讛诪爪讬讗 诪讝讜谞讜转诐 讜爪专讻诐 讘专讜讞, 诪转讜讱 讻讱 讛讜讗 讘讟诇 诪讚讘专讬-转讜专讛, 讻讬 讬注砖讛 注住拽讬讜 注拽专, 讜诪转讜讱 讻讱 讻诇 诪注砖讬讜 诪讘诇讘诇讬诐.
I think it's clear that he's learning that the case was that she was asking for more then was neecesary so his way of getting her "off his back" was to tell her what he said.

basmelech

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Post Re: Learning Torah
on: June 9, 2013, 11:42 AM

Thanks Bracha for doing the homework! 馃槈

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e02

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Post Re: Learning Torah
on: November 21, 2013, 7:24 AM

Quote from feigy123 on June 6, 2013, 10:41 AM

Quote from Princess Lea on June 6, 2013, 10:19 AM
Bracha, this concept of boys learning full time is recent鈥攊t is probably the first time in history that it was possible for them to do so without starving to death.

It is not recent. The gemara talks about a certain amorah who went away to learn, and his wife asked him what she would feed the kids, and he told her to pick plants in the swamp. And left.

It is recent that there are so many doing it, and recent that it is so easy financially. But the ideal that men should be learning Torah as much as they can and not being involved in the world, is as old as spending 40 years in the midbar doing precisely that.

"Easy financially??" Are you joking???

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