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Author Topic: Tznius
Shaindy

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Post Tznius
on: July 1, 2013, 3:31 PM

Does the Halachos of tznius apply in front of goyim? Like when you are on vacation.

thinkingBY-
girl

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Post Re: Tznius
on: July 1, 2013, 3:45 PM

Yes. Tzinius also applies when there's no one around. Also, taking a stab at what this question is really about, mixed swimming is its own problem.

s.

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Post Re: Tznius
on: July 1, 2013, 4:00 PM

Exactly. One aspect of tznius is about what people are going to see when they look at you, but another aspect is about how you see yourself. That's why the way you dress/talk/act in private also "counts". So it's not really about who it's in front of (whether they are jewish or not).

feigy123

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Post Re: Tznius
on: July 1, 2013, 4:42 PM

This is fascinating, and sort of cuts into the heart of tznius.

Can one go to a mixed beach and wear a swimsuit or a shvimkleide, where there will be men the men will be not jewish?
Well, why not? Is it lifnei iver to the men? No, they don't have the same mitzvos.

I have no idea.

chaykie

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Post Re: Tznius
on: July 1, 2013, 6:44 PM

Girls- the whole point of tzniyus (besides from our inner selves) is to show those around us that we are different. we are refined. we are Hashem's ppl. How would dressing not tzniyus, like during vacation, accomplish that?

patcha

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Post Re: Tznius
on: July 1, 2013, 7:27 PM

Quote from feigy123 on July 1, 2013, 4:42 PM
This is fascinating, and sort of cuts into the heart of tznius.

Can one go to a mixed beach and wear a swimsuit or a shvimkleide, where there will be men the men will be not jewish?
Well, why not? Is it lifnei iver to the men? No, they don't have the same mitzvos.

I have no idea.

That's a great question. Why can't we go to a non-Jewish mixed beach with shvimkleide?

I would feel uncomfortable doing so, but is there any issur? (besides for the fact we have no idea who is Jewish and who isn't.)

feigy123

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Post Re: Tznius
on: July 1, 2013, 7:31 PM

Well let's say it's a JCC so you know there are no jews.

patcha

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Post Re: Tznius
on: July 1, 2013, 7:48 PM

Do you refer to Jewish community center? Or J- C- Church? At the beach?

How does that solve the problem of possible Jewish males?

thinkingBY-
girl

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Post Re: Tznius
on: July 1, 2013, 7:57 PM

I think you mean a YMCA. Aside from mixed swimming, one thing inherently wrong about a mixed beach (even if you're 100% tzinus) is some major shmrias einyim problems. Also, the atmosphere is an issue.

basmelech

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Post Re: Tznius
on: July 1, 2013, 8:59 PM

A jewish girl is a princess, and a boy is a prince. We are all children of H-shem who is the King of all kings.
People who look for loopholes will find them. H-shem gave us bechira so He gave us the ability to choose right or wrong. We need to make the choice to choose whats right. Going to mixed beaches is not advisable. Ask your rav if your not sure. Hope you make the right decision. 🙂

Shaindy

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Post Re: Tznius
on: July 1, 2013, 9:06 PM

Quote from thinkingBYgirl on July 1, 2013, 3:45 PM
Yes. Tzinius also applies when there's no one around.

Yeah but you go swimming in your bathing suit when there are just girl's there.

Also, taking a stab at what this question is really about, mixed swimming is its own problem.

I've always heard vague references to such a concept but I never heard anything clear. Do you know a source? Or a reason?

For the record I would never go swimming on a mixed beach. My question was more like when I find a private beach (like further down from the public beach) and nobody's around how concerned do I have to be that someone will see me? What if I wear a a robe but no socks? You get what I'm asking?
The Goyim won't look twice at me! There are a lot less Tznius things to look at. So how concerned do I have to be? Get it?

basmelech

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Post Re: Tznius
on: July 1, 2013, 9:32 PM

Quote from Shaindy on July 1, 2013, 9:06 PM

Quote from thinkingBYgirl on July 1, 2013, 3:45 PM
Yes. Tzinius also applies when there's no one around.

Yeah but you go swimming in your bathing suit when there are just girl's there.

Also, taking a stab at what this question is really about, mixed swimming is its own problem.

I've always heard vague references to such a concept but I never heard anything clear. Do you know a source? Or a reason?

For the record I would never go swimming on a mixed beach. My question was more like when I find a private beach (like further down from the public beach) and nobody's around how concerned do I have to be that someone will see me? What if I wear a a robe but no socks? You get what I'm asking?
The Goyim won't look twice at me! There are a lot less Tznius things to look at. So how concerned do I have to be? Get it?

Girls dont have the same nisyonos as boys. Going swimming with just girls is not saying your not being tznius. When your tznius when no one is around this shows that you value yourself as more than a piece of meat.
" You dont have a soul, you have a body. You are a soul"

Shaindy you have good questions. I think you should ask a rav. Its not about how the goyim wont notice you. Hello if someone goes around dressed in pants and tank top in manhattan they wont stick out. We stick out. Princesses stick out. People notice them and copy their ways. Be a good role model 🙂

thinkingBY-
girl

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Post Re: Tznius
on: July 1, 2013, 11:17 PM

Quote from Shaindy on July 1, 2013, 9:06 PM
I've always heard vague references to such a concept but I never heard anything clear. Do you know a source? Or a reason?

If you're looking for the hashkafa around tznius I can suggest you read Outside Inside by Gila Manolson; it's eye-opening. If you're looking for halacha, well, there are some sefarim I could suggest, but there's a lot of differences of opinions regarding what is basic halacha and what is chumra (daas moshe, daas yehudis, etc.). The best thing I can tell you is to have this discussion with a rav or someone whom you look up to and respect their opinion (such as a seminary teacher or the like).

TryToDoWha-
tsRight

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Post Re: Tznius
on: July 1, 2013, 11:23 PM

I've really been wanting to go to a beach recently. 😕 A lot of my friends go (even with their families) and I feel like I'm missing out on something. I also want to get tan and there aren't any private outdoor pools that I can go to. What is the issur with being not tznius in front of goyim? (Besides for the fact that it's not good for u personally...etc)

basmelech

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Post Re: Tznius
on: July 2, 2013, 6:13 PM

Heres a mashal and nimshal that might clarify this a bit b'ezras H-shem.
Mashal:
There are diamonds and pieces of plain glass.
Diamonds are kept in special cases to protect them from getting stolen or damaged. Only one person has access to it. The storeowner. He takes good care of his diamonds. He is trustworthy. He is responsible for the safekeeping of his diamonds. No ordinary drunkard or simpleton can come take a look at it. Diamonds are special so they are kept under lock and key.
Plain glass is sold on top for all to see and touch. It can get damaged or stolen but the owner doesnt care so much. The value isnt that of diamonds. Anyone can have access to it. They are but a fraction of the price. Its almost like feel free to do as you please with it.

Nimshal:
A jewish girl is a diamond. H-shem gave us Tznius. Its for us to protect us. Not everyone has free access. Only one "owner" who truly cares about their "diamond" and watches over it. That will be our husband iy"H. Not just any drunkard or simpleton. We are worth more than simple pieces of glass on the counter available to anyone who would like to play or do damage to it.
H-shem knows what is best for us even more than we ourselves know. Trust Him. 🙂

TryToDoWha-
tsRight

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Post Re: Tznius
on: July 2, 2013, 6:44 PM

Wow that was really beautiful...
You're right - I guess I just needed to hear it put that way for me to realize and remember why it's so wrong.
Thank you!! 😀

s.

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Post Re: Tznius
on: July 3, 2013, 1:27 PM

yay! ashreichem yisrael 🙂

basmelech

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Post Re: Tznius
on: July 3, 2013, 6:35 PM

Quote from TryToDoWhatsRight on July 2, 2013, 6:44 PM
Wow that was really beautiful...
You're right - I guess I just needed to hear it put that way for me to realize and remember why it's so wrong.
Thank you!! 😀

Your welcome! Im so happy that it helped you b"H 😀

TryToDoWha-
tsRight

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Post Re: Tznius
on: July 3, 2013, 9:42 PM

Thanks!! 🙂

growing

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Post Re: Tznius
on: July 3, 2013, 10:55 PM

Beautiful!!

chaykie

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Post Re: Tznius
on: July 4, 2013, 1:51 PM

i love the mashal, never heard it like that b4. thanks basmelech. i guess if anyone, you would know such a mashal 🙂

gold

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Post Re: Tznius
on: July 9, 2013, 8:19 PM

Beautiful, bas melech!!

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