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Author Topic: Tznius Question
pray today

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Post Tznius Question
on: June 2, 2013, 12:10 PM

So I was in the park pushing my niece on the swing, next to me is a very frum looking young man pushing his daughter. He keeps going back and forth from pushing his daughter to taking care of his baby in the stroller nearby. Should I offer to push his daughter on the swing for him? Would you?

patcha

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Post Re: Tznius Question
on: June 2, 2013, 1:11 PM

Be careful as you do not know his story or anything about him.

If there are other people around, don't ask, just do it when he's away. If there aren't I would just keep to myself. Just because he looks frum doesn't mean he's a safe person.

basmelech

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Post Re: Tznius Question
on: June 2, 2013, 2:39 PM

I know what you mean. Its a real struggle. you really want to help! I have that problem a lot when I see a man carrying heavy bags, or an old man wants to shake my hand. But Tznius should not be sacrificed or endangered for chessed you can ask any gadol if you would like to make sure of that. The yetzer hara would much rather we do chessed instead of tznius because it can lead to worse aveiros. So the right thing in this scenario I think would be not to offer. like patcha said you dont know anything about him... He may react very different then you would expect 😐

hello

Dater

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Post Re: Tznius Question
on: June 2, 2013, 2:54 PM

I don't think there's anything wrong with that. Just offer politely, let him say no if he doesn't feel comfortable, or else gratefully say yes and he'll take care of the baby and you'll push the older child, and finished.

rosepetal5

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Post Re: Tznius Question
on: June 2, 2013, 3:47 PM

On the other side of that, he may not feel at all comfortable with a complete stranger offering that. I'm sure you're a very nice person, but he doesn't know that, and your offer may freak him out.
Just be careful.

in the gap

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Post Re: Tznius Question
on: June 2, 2013, 4:35 PM

I think that you should just start doing pushing the child and see if he seems to appreciate it, which he probably will. Then, he can watch the baby, and you can help out without having to breach any halachos. Or, you can direct the question to the child. This way the father doesn't have to respond if he doesn't want to, but will get the message that you are willing to help out.

basmelech

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Post Re: Tznius Question
on: June 2, 2013, 4:51 PM

in the gap those are good ideas. i didnt think of that 😉

Gayil

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Post Re: Tznius Question
on: June 2, 2013, 5:21 PM

I really dont think it's a matter of tznius.. I think it is menchlickiet to offer him to swing his child 🙂
I deffinetly would:)

cool nerd

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Post Re: Tznius Question
on: June 2, 2013, 6:00 PM

With all the stories you hear today, I'd probably freak out if a stanger started pushing my child/sibling.

basmelech

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Post Re: Tznius Question
on: June 2, 2013, 6:19 PM

Oh right you have a very valid point there! 😐

pray today

Dating Maven

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Post Re: Tznius Question
on: June 2, 2013, 7:33 PM

Wow! Thanks everyone for all the tips! This actually happens to me more often than you would think 😀

feigy123

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Post Re: Tznius Question
on: June 3, 2013, 10:38 AM

Quote from basmelech on June 2, 2013, 2:39 PM
But TZNIUS OVERRIDES CHESSED you can ask any gadol if you would like to make sure of that.

???

There is no such rule. Tznius sometimes overrides chessed, and sometimes doesn't.

I don't have such great access to any gadol to ask them, sorry.

basmelech

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Post Re: Tznius Question
on: June 3, 2013, 2:22 PM

You said, "Tznius sometimes overrides chessed, and sometimes doesn't." Im sorry but its hard for me to believe that without a source, can you please bring the source? And if sometimes yes and sometimes no where do you draw the line? It should be a yes or no or clear distinction.
Thanks for pointing this out it does need a source.
Here is one example of how tznius is more important than chessed, i can get you more if you would like. Sarah didnt go out (tznius) to serve the guests Avrohom did (chessed). She stayed inside. "...Sarah b'ohel.."
I have to switch it from tznius overrides chessed to tznius should not be sacrificed/endangered for chessed. thank you for pointing this out! 🙂

You can ask a sheila then to your local rabbi if you would like. 😉

feigy123

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Post Re: Tznius Question
on: June 3, 2013, 2:27 PM

And you said that Tznius always overrides chessed. It is much harder for me to believe that without a source.

So neither of us have a source. So let's leave it that we have no idea whether tznius always overrides chessed?

And sure, I agree about the example of sarah. But that doesn't show that it always overrides chessed.

basmelech

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Post Re: Tznius Question
on: June 3, 2013, 2:30 PM

Sorry i changed what i wrote should be "tznius should not be sacrificed/endangered for chessed." 🙂
Thank you for noticing the problem with the way it is written.

Bracha613

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Post Re: Tznius Question
on: June 3, 2013, 2:58 PM

Welcome "Hello" I see your new here.

patcha

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Post Re: Tznius Question
on: June 3, 2013, 3:02 PM

Quote from hello on June 2, 2013, 2:54 PM
I don't think there's anything wrong with that. Just offer politely, let him say no if he doesn't feel comfortable, or else gratefully say yes and he'll take care of the baby and you'll push the older child, and finished.

hello hello! Do I know you?

feigy123

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Post Re: Tznius Question
on: June 3, 2013, 3:06 PM

Quote from basmelech on June 3, 2013, 2:30 PM
Sorry i changed what i wrote should be "tznius should not be sacrificed/endangered for chessed." 🙂
Thank you for noticing the problem with the way it is written.

I'm also sorry, but I still don't agree. It depends on the circumstances. It depends whether tznius issue is min hadin or a chumrah or a sensibility, and it depends how strong the chessed need is.

hello

Dater

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Post Re: Tznius Question
on: June 3, 2013, 3:22 PM

Hi everyone! *wave* Thanks for the welcome, Bracha and patcha!

Bracha613

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Post Re: Tznius Question
on: June 3, 2013, 3:22 PM

Quote from feigy123 on June 3, 2013, 10:38 AM
???

There is no such rule. Tznius sometimes overrides chessed, and sometimes doesn't.

I don't have such great access to any gadol to ask them, sorry.

Ever heard the expression
"The end doesn't justify the means."

hello

Dater

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Post Re: Tznius Question
on: June 3, 2013, 3:39 PM

I don't think any blanket statements can be made about prioritizing tznius or chesed. In each situation, the tznius issue would have to be weighed against the chesed. I think everyone would agree that the chesed does not override tznius, if say the tznius violation was singing to the baby so her father (in earshot) could push the swing. On the other hand if the father ch"v choked and was turning purple and no one else qualified was around, the girl could and should perform the Heimlich maneuver on him even though that involves issur negiah.
Here though, I don't think it was an issue of tznius v. chesed. The question was really I think "is offering to push the swing a violation of tznius?"

iThink

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Post Re: Tznius Question
on: June 3, 2013, 3:54 PM

No question about it. There are times when a breach in tznius (halacha or personal standards) is justified for the purpose of Chesed. Obviously you would need to consult Daas torah to appraise each situation.

iThink

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Post Re: Tznius Question
on: June 3, 2013, 4:00 PM

Quote from hello on June 3, 2013, 3:39 PM
I don't think any blanket statements can be made about prioritizing tznius or chesed. In each situation, the tznius issue would have to be weighed against the chesed. I think everyone would agree that the chesed does not override tznius, if say the tznius violation was singing to the baby so her father (in earshot) could push the swing. On the other hand if the father ch"v choked and was turning purple and no one else qualified was around, the girl could and should perform the Heimlich maneuver on him even though that involves issur negiah.
Here though, I don't think it was an issue of tznius v. chesed. The question was really I think "is offering to push the swing a violation of tznius?"

Welcome to inshidduchim.com! Excellent examples, just wanna say that it may not always take such an extreme scenario.

basmelech

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Post Re: Tznius Question
on: June 3, 2013, 4:19 PM

Quote from hello on June 3, 2013, 3:39 PM
...On the other hand if the father ch"v choked and was turning purple and no one else qualified was around, the girl could and should perform the Heimlich maneuver on him even though that involves issur negiah.

Firstly Hello hello! 😉
Secondly, of course yes in the above scenario a person has a chiuv to save someone's life. Saving a life is allowed even it means being mechalel Shabbos! So yes that is a given. Sorry i should have said it has some exceptions. But as a whole tznius should not be sacrificed to do a chessed. Example: Speaking to the bus driver on a bus and making regular conversation with him, because the poor man is bored since all the girls are chattering away to themselves.
The above scenario sounds different because A) he seems like a frum man B) he really could use the help and C) you are giving the help to the child not him. But the problem with this is that like some people pointed out you dont know him. Maybe asking the child loud enough (so the father can hear) if he wants to be pushed might be a good idea. Best idea in tricky situation is get advice from a rav like iThink said. 🙂

patcha

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Post Re: Tznius Question
on: June 3, 2013, 5:24 PM

Tznius and chesed are not black and white.

We don't know enough to make a decision for you, pray today. How safe is the park? The safer it is, the more appropriate it would be for you to help. But if you're the only two people in an isolated park, that's already a dangerous situation.

Avigail

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Post Re: Tznius Question
on: June 8, 2013, 11:24 PM

Quote from basmelech on June 3, 2013, 2:22 PM
You said, "Tznius sometimes overrides chessed, and sometimes doesn't." Im sorry but its hard for me to believe that without a source, can you please bring the source? And if sometimes yes and sometimes no where do you draw the line? It should be a yes or no or clear distinction.
Thanks for pointing this out it does need a source.
Here is one example of how tznius is more important than chessed, i can get you more if you would like. Sarah didnt go out (tznius) to serve the guests Avrohom did (chessed). She stayed inside. "...Sarah b'ohel.."
I have to switch it from tznius overrides chessed to tznius should not be sacrificed/endangered for chessed. thank you for pointing this out! 🙂

You can ask a sheila then to your local rabbi if you would like. 😉

OK I like your example from Sarah but here is an opposite example though. Oan Ben Peles's wife stands outside with her hair uncovered so her husband shouldn't join Korach. So we see she is sacrificing Tznius for a Mitzva.
I guess the question is that the chesed here is kind of like extra credit (meaning he's OK without you and he would do the same thing if you weren't here) so why sacrifice Tznius for Chesed that's extra credit.

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