Forums

Suggest a New Forum Category

Welcome Guest 

Show/Hide Header

Welcome Guest, posting in this forum requires registration.

Pages: [1]
Author Topic: Supporting Husband
Bracha

Dating Maven

Posts: 62
Send Message
Post Supporting Husband
on: April 3, 2013, 9:44 PM

My Brother in law gave my sister a frame with the following in it, I thought it was so beautiful I copied it for everyone. IY"H by us all!!!!!
ובאמת אלו הנשים התומכות ידי בעליהן וידי בניהן שילמדו תורה זכותן גדול מאד ושכרן הרבה מאד וכל שכן שותן הנשים העוסקות בפרנסה למען שיוכלו בעליהן לישב על התורה עליהן נאמר אשת חיל מי ימצא ועוז והדר לבושה ותשחק ליום אחרון ואשה יראת ה' היא תתהלל ואוכלת פירותיה בעולם הזה והקרן קיימת לה לעולם הבא

Miriam

Dating Maven

Posts: 51
Send Message
Post Re: Supporting Husband
on: April 4, 2013, 1:56 PM

Thanks Bracha! Sometimes I find myself questioning why I want my husband to learn and I'll work to support the family - this was great to help me refocus!

iThink

Dating Pro

Posts: 311
Send Message
Post Re: Supporting Husband
on: April 4, 2013, 3:46 PM

Quote from Miriam on April 4, 2013, 1:56 PM
Thanks Bracha! Sometimes I find myself questioning why I want my husband to learn and I'll work to support the family - this was great to help me refocus!

Okay, that was easy:-)

bitochon25

Dater

Posts: 8
Send Message
Post Re: Supporting Husband
on: April 4, 2013, 4:29 PM

Can anyone translate please?

Princess-
Lea

Dating Pro

Posts: 223
Send Message
Post Re: Supporting Husband
on: April 5, 2013, 12:39 PM

Miriam, I don't know what that says, but it is written in practically every text we have that a husband is supposed to support his wife. It even says so in the kesubah. If you don't want to support a husband, that is a perfectly valid and Torahdig desire. You don't have to be "reminded" if you want to be a stay-at-home-mother!

For a man to care for his family, allowing his wife to take care of her children and home, that brings one such zechusim!

iThink

Dating Pro

Posts: 311
Send Message
Post Re: Supporting Husband
on: April 5, 2013, 1:15 PM

It's true that the husband has an obligation to support his wife and children, but that doesn't mean that a woman can't choose to accept a large share of that responsibility. But, like Princess Leah pointed out: it's important to remember that the ideal setup is where the husband has the primary parnassah responsibility. Not the other way around.

feigy123

Dating Coach

Posts: 553
Send Message
Post Re: Supporting Husband
on: April 5, 2013, 1:22 PM

I don't know why you all think a husband is supposed to support his wife. He is also allowed to say that he won't support and she can keep her own work. And she is also allowed to say that she won't work for him and won't be supported.
The kesubah just sets up the default.

iThink

Dating Pro

Posts: 311
Send Message
Post Re: Supporting Husband
on: April 5, 2013, 1:47 PM

"And I will work for, esteem, feed and support you as is the custom of Jewish men who work for, esteem, feed and support their wives faithfully..."

Direct quote. From the kesubah.

feigy123

Dating Coach

Posts: 553
Send Message
Post Re: Supporting Husband
on: April 5, 2013, 1:49 PM

Quote from iThink on April 5, 2013, 1:47 PM
"And I will work for, esteem, feed and support you as is the custom of Jewish men who work for, esteem, feed and support their wives faithfully..."

Direct quote. From the kesubah.

yah. but the gemara says that it is just the default, and that either party can back out of the deal while still remaining married.

iThink

Dating Pro

Posts: 311
Send Message
Post Re: Supporting Husband
on: April 5, 2013, 1:50 PM

Right. But this would still be the ideal setup.

iThink

Dating Pro

Posts: 311
Send Message
Post Re: Supporting Husband
on: April 5, 2013, 1:51 PM

(I'm not sure about that gemara, btw, never heard of it. But I'll take your word for it.)

feigy123

Dating Coach

Posts: 553
Send Message
Post Re: Supporting Husband
on: April 5, 2013, 2:23 PM

I'll ask my brother for citation, if that will help

iThink

Dating Pro

Posts: 311
Send Message
Post Re: Supporting Husband
on: April 5, 2013, 2:59 PM

That's ok, I wouldn't look it up anyway:-) It actually makes sense that there is such a gemara. That may explain why the kollel system is acceptable.

Bracha

Dating Maven

Posts: 62
Send Message
Post Re: Supporting Husband
on: April 6, 2013, 9:56 PM

Quote from bitochon25 on April 4, 2013, 4:29 PM
Can anyone translate please?

ובאמת אלו הנשים התומכות ידי בעליהן וידי בניהן שילמדו תורה זכותן גדול מאד ושכרן הרבה מאד וכל שכן שותן הנשים העוסקות בפרנסה למען שיוכלו בעליהן לישב על התורה עליהן נאמר אשת חיל מי ימצא ועוז והדר לבושה ותשחק ליום אחרון ואשה יראת ה' היא תתהלל ואוכלת פירותיה בעולם הזה והקרן קיימת לה לעולם הבא
Ok here goes:
"The truth is, that these women that encourage their husbands and their children so they will learn Torah, their merit is very great and their reward is very much. And how much more so those women that earn a livelihood so that their husbands can sit and learn Torah. About these women is says: " A woman of valor who can find..and strength and beauty is her clothing, and she awaits the last day...and a woman who fears Hashem is to be praised (אשת חיל מי ימצא ועוז והדר לבושה ותשחק ליום אחרון ואשה יראת ה' היא תתהלל)". She gets reward in this world and the ultimate reward will be for her in the next world."

Fiegy123 - Just BTW my father said that he thinks that a man has to support his wife, and does not have the option of telling her to feed herself, just she has that option, that she can feed herself and keep the money she makes.

Ithink - I think (no pun intended) that the rational behind the Kollel system is that nowadays it's very hard for men to work and still accomplish a lot in their learning. So the wives willingly work in order that he can stay in learning but ultimately if she want's to stop working, it is the husbands job to support like it says in his Kesuba.

feigy123

Dating Coach

Posts: 553
Send Message
Post Re: Supporting Husband
on: April 7, 2013, 12:25 AM

Tell your father to look in the rema even haezer 69:4.

My brother says I was a little imprecise. The husband can tell her to work and support herself, but if she isn't able to make enough money then he has to give her the rest.

iThink

Dating Pro

Posts: 311
Send Message
Post Re: Supporting Husband
on: April 7, 2013, 12:47 AM

Bracha - I'm not sure I understand you point. What exactly has changed that would make it harder for a man to learn properly while earning a living?

feigy123

Dating Coach

Posts: 553
Send Message
Post Re: Supporting Husband
on: April 7, 2013, 12:53 AM

Quote from iThink on April 7, 2013, 12:47 AM
Bracha - I'm not sure I understand you point. What exactly has changed that would make it harder for a man to learn properly while earning a living?

Well for one thing, it is rare to find a job that supports a family and has normal hours. Almost every job with good pay will require frequent 10 or 12 hour days, and working on weekends. Not much time left for learning.

iThink

Dating Pro

Posts: 311
Send Message
Post Re: Supporting Husband
on: April 7, 2013, 12:56 AM

Quote from feigy123 on April 7, 2013, 12:53 AM

Quote from iThink on April 7, 2013, 12:47 AM
Bracha - I'm not sure I understand you point. What exactly has changed that would make it harder for a man to learn properly while earning a living?

Well for one thing, it is rare to find a job that supports a family and has normal hours. Almost every job with good pay will require frequent 10 or 12 hour days, and working on weekends. Not much time left for learning.

Right, but can anyone say that earning a decent living ever was not a full time job? What changed?

feigy123

Dating Coach

Posts: 553
Send Message
Post Re: Supporting Husband
on: April 7, 2013, 1:11 AM

I think it did change. I think it used to be that you could support a family on a 40 hour a week job. That's all over.

Just think about the men in your life; what time do they come home? Do they work on Sunday?

Princess-
Lea

Dating Pro

Posts: 223
Send Message
Post Re: Supporting Husband
on: April 8, 2013, 1:15 PM

Um, the hours of a man's work has less to do with his learning in his spare time as to the man's drive to learn.

Just because he has full-time learning ability does not mean he has learning quality.

Feigy, where exactly is your source that suddenly all male jobs suddenly have killer hours, as opposed to the past? That would mean the wife, who is often working the same job as a man, will never be able to be there for her children.

Support a family on a 40 week job "once"? Yeah, also because people lived MUCH simpler lives. They never spent money, really. My grandmother and grandfather came to this country after the war and had factory jobs, raised their children, then had plenty for their retirement, because they never spent money. Like, never.

My father is a partner in a firm and at certain times of year has to work Sundays, but he is probably the most learned man I ever came across. He regularly flummoxes the rabbi. My dates even comment on his knowledge, and some of them were learners at some point. "Learned" does not equal "learning."

It is an incredible burden on a woman to take on child care and family support. If a girl chooses to do so, it better be with open eyes and an ability to take on so much. I know myself. I can't.

But I choose, bezras Hashem, that I can be a stay at home mother like my mother was able to raise me. She was able to be my mother free of guilt, stress, or worry. And she's a worrier. I want my children to have that same experience.

The conversation about sitting and learning has nothing to do with so-called modern working hours; there are many different types of jobs out there. If a wife says she cannot handle it, by the binds of the kesubah the man MUST go to work. And there are men, who are told by their exhausted wives that they cannot do it anymore, and the man just refuses to get a job.

Choose wisely.

feigy123

Dating Coach

Posts: 553
Send Message
Post Re: Supporting Husband
on: April 8, 2013, 2:03 PM

What is my source? Anecdotal evidence. All the men who I know who make even nearly enough to support a family are working very heavy hours.

I'm sure someone who really really really cares about learning can work 70 hours a week and still learn for 2 hours a day, but realistically, someone who is working is not going to be learning very much.

Princess-
Lea

Dating Pro

Posts: 223
Send Message
Post Re: Supporting Husband
on: April 8, 2013, 2:38 PM

So a wife who works these same difficult hours as a man would have to work to support her husband and family won't be home very much; despite the feminist movement, women are being paid less than men for the same jobs, for the same hours. Meaning, her husband will have to take care of the laundry and cook supper and get the kids ready for school and get the groceries and take care of the baby and be, pretty much, a full time mom. Doesn't sound like he'll have that much time to learn anyway, unless this wife is also magically making enough to hire full-time help, who can't take care of everything, though.

The man who kills himself to support his family gets schar, too. His wife that devotes herself to raising children with manners and faith gets schar, too. That effort is not considered "nothing" by the Eibishter.

This is the first time in history, ever, that men are actually able to learn instead of work and not starve. This has never been an option ever before, yet our generation is the only one getting schar? All the rabbanim mentioned in the Gemara worked; the shoemaker, the tanner, etc. The ones who didn't usually came from wealthy families who were able to support them.

iThink

Dating Pro

Posts: 311
Send Message
Post Re: Supporting Husband
on: April 8, 2013, 3:32 PM

Just want to mention that my father who as a business owner is technically always working, has no set hours, and BH manages to put in at least three hours of learning every single day.

Of course he could have gotten away with no serious learning for all these years- all in the name of parnassah. Everyone knows how much time and commitment it takes to start and run a business and that's before difficult family circumstances are considered. He can tell you about missed opportunities that were impossible to explore without the 70+ hour workweek commitment which he could not accept. Hishtadlus is a tricky business. It's hard to know when you've done enough and it's time to leaves the office and spend some time in the BM. And the road from knowledge to action is long an difficult.

So I must insist, based on personal experience, that serious growth in learning for a working guy is very possible, although not easy.

Hashem never designed they world so that one should have to sacrifice learning to make a parnassah.

Bracha

Dating Maven

Posts: 62
Send Message
Post Re: Supporting Husband
on: April 8, 2013, 4:16 PM

Quote from iThink on April 7, 2013, 12:47 AM
Bracha - I'm not sure I understand you point. What exactly has changed that would make it harder for a man to learn properly while earning a living?

What I actually meant was Yeridas Hadoros. I think the Kollel idea was started by R' Chaim Volozhiner and he felt that it in his days in order to produce Gedolim they need to be learning full time. Of course his idea was not that every single person should learn in kollel. But I believe that was his idea. Of course what fiegy123 is saying is true that if you will look around you will see that most people who are working do not have the time or energy to become real Talmidai Chachamim obviously there are quite a few exceptions but on a realistic level you should realize that that is not necessarily whoyou will get. Good luck to all!!!!!

thinkingBY-
girl

Dating Coach

Posts: 607
Send Message
Post Re: Supporting Husband
on: April 8, 2013, 5:22 PM

To also just highlight that there is a lot more as part of this mix, such as familial responsibilities, be them wife/children variety or older parents/other relatives type, other extracurriculars, etc.

It's not just working vs. learning, or even having the ambition and hasmada to learn while swimming against financial and other pressures.

feigy123

Dating Coach

Posts: 553
Send Message
Post Re: Supporting Husband
on: April 8, 2013, 5:23 PM

ithink: If you father is a small business owner, then he sets his own hours, and is able to simply accept less money for less time.

Most working men I know would be thrilled to give up 30% of their pay in exchange for 30% less hours. But they can't, because they are employees.

iThink

Dating Pro

Posts: 311
Send Message
Post Re: Supporting Husband
on: April 8, 2013, 6:37 PM

Quote from thinkingBYgirl on April 8, 2013, 5:22 PM
To also just highlight that there is a lot more as part of this mix, such as familial responsibilities, be them wife/children variety or older parents/other relatives type, other extracurriculars, etc.

It's not just working vs. learning, or even having the ambition and hasmada to learn while swimming against financial and other pressures.

Familial responsibilites in particular is a huge factor. This, as opposed to extracurriculars (including communal and social obligations) sometimes cannot be cut down on. Also, these responsibilities often change at any time, for any extended period of time.

iThink

Dating Pro

Posts: 311
Send Message
Post Re: Supporting Husband
on: April 8, 2013, 6:45 PM

Quote from feigy123 on April 8, 2013, 5:23 PM
ithink: If you father is a small business owner, then he sets his own hours, and is able to simply accept less money for less time.

Most working men I know would be thrilled to give up 30% of their pay in exchange for 30% less hours. But they can't, because they are employees.

Obviously this needs to be looked at on a case by case basis since there are so many factors involved. Every employment arrangement is different, and based on an individual's training, experience and qualifications, it may or may not be possible to make career/employment changes that would free up some time for learning. It would be silly to say that it's an option for everyone. But if learning would in fact be a priority for all working guys, there would suddenly be a whole lot of more options to make it work. Even if it meant making some tough lifestyle changes.

basmelech

Dating Coach

Posts: 408
Send Message
Post Re: Supporting Husband
on: May 19, 2013, 2:10 AM

Basically what i think all of you are saying is that a wife can work to support her husband in learning, and it is praiseworthy to do so. BUT it is the decision of the woman to make, and if she can not keep to it or decides not to support, then the husband is then obligated to support her. Is that right?

Pages: [1]
Mingle Forum by cartpauj
Version: 1.0.33.3; Page loaded in: 0.169 seconds.