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Author Topic: Brainwashing
Avigail

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Post Brainwashing
on: May 23, 2013, 8:57 AM

I was reading one of the other posts and I thought this deserves it's own thread. The writer claims that seminaries brainwash to marry a learning boy... I've heard people say that before but it really bothers me.
Is showing you the beauty of something called brainwashing????
Opinions please

feigy123

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Post Re: Brainwashing
on: May 23, 2013, 9:33 AM

Wow, it is certainly worth discussing, but I think you could have started the conversation on a different note.

Asking: "Is showing you the beauty of something called brainwashing????", is sort of like asking someone how often they beat their kids.

Why don't you ask: "I know there are proper and improper methods of convincing people to change their way of life. My experience in seminary was positive and I think was the proper way. Is there really a problem going on with this?"

iThink

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Post Re: Brainwashing
on: May 23, 2013, 9:50 AM

Well Merriam Webster has the following definition :

Brainwashing - n-1. A forcible indoctrination to induce someone to give up basic political, social, or religious beliefs and attitudes and to accept contrasting regimented ideas. 2. Persuasion by propaganda or salesmanship

Nobody is forced to sit through classes where a kollel lifestyle is repeatedly presented as the ideal or only acceptable lifestyle, so I don't think the first definition applies. But it does seem to fit right into the second definition.

lukshenkug-
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Post Re: Brainwashing
on: May 23, 2013, 9:57 AM

I agree with Feigy123, there is major difference between brainwashing and trying to show the beauty of something and of course that all depends on the presentation. I went to a seminary that really showed the beauty of marrying a learning boy but no, you are not a total loser if you don't or can't. The financial burden on whoever it may fall (wife, parents etc) is not always a practical possibility and a boy who doesn't have a decent source of money while in kolel and is forced to go to work should not be made to feel second rate. There are ways to serve Hashem in the workplace as well. There are also many boys who are not cut out for full-time learning but are great Jews and would make amazing husbands and fathers. On that note, don't get me wrong, I think a learning boy or at least starting off a marriage with a boy in learning is a beautiful thing and would be the ideal way if we lived in an ideal world. But, we don't live in an ideal world, and making people feel second rate for taking responsibility for their families needs is simply a disservice to ourselves. Everyone has to do what they can- all Hashem expects us to do is our best and if we do, then we've succeeded.

atararox

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Post Re: Brainwashing
on: May 23, 2013, 10:15 AM

A guy once asked me on a date if I was brainwashed in sem - and he was a learning boy!!! How weird is that? Idk why but it seemed so derogatory to me like he was almost putting down learning - and I wouldn't be surprised if alot of learning boys felt that way! There is a special beauty to it but i just wish rebbeim and roshei yeshiva wouldn't make going out to work such a sin. I think that's what the prob is! Girls are smarter and are capable of thinking for themselves but boys need more direction and they respect their rosh yeshiva in a different way than we respect our sem teachers so they will listen and sit and learn if thats what they are told is the right thing ....Basically I think the brainwashing is on the boys! And then now that any half decent guy is sitting and learning - all the good girls - even if they are open minded - are forced to look for learning guys ....

life123

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Post Re: Brainwashing
on: May 23, 2013, 10:41 AM

Brainwashing in sem isn't only in regards to learning... I have a friend who went to sem here and is proud of being brainwashed - it refers to learning new hashkafos, and she loved the sem hashkafos and ideas. If a boy asked me if I was brainwashed (which wouldn't happen, but if it did) I would assume he was asking me if I'd learned a different hashkafa in sem and if it might fade when away from the influence, or if my hashkafos were my own and what I really believed.

in the gap

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Post Re: Brainwashing
on: May 23, 2013, 1:49 PM

I don't think it is considered Brainwashing, but encouraging ideals. Just so you should know, I am very proud of what I learnt, and I think that the teachers were very careful to make sure that we don't see it as an absolute, and are prepared for when our husbands might have to leave learning. They aren't trying to convince us of anything and everyone knows that if you go to certain seminaries this is what you will be hearing, so if they don't want to, they don't have to go to those seminaries.

basmelech

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Post Re: Brainwashing
on: May 23, 2013, 2:59 PM

Seminary is a wonderful place for girls to go to. If you want to use "brainwashed" then be my guest! Is it bad to be " brainwashed"when someone is taught to love others? Is it brainwashing when we understand more why our Torah is so special? Is it brainwashing when we begin to think before we speak knowing that are words have so much value? These are all wonderful qualities! So long as its coming from an emotionally healthy place and put into practice the right way. 🙂

feigy123

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Post Re: Brainwashing
on: May 23, 2013, 3:32 PM

If this topic is to be constructive, we really need to define which teaching techniques which we observed in seminary might be objectionable (no need to call it a name), and then discuss why that might be objectionable.

patcha

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Post Re: Brainwashing
on: May 23, 2013, 6:17 PM

Quote from basmelech on May 23, 2013, 2:59 PM
Seminary is a wonderful place for girls to go to.

Some seminaries, some girls.

Honestly, the main thing I got out of seminary was crazy stories to tell people when I want to make conversation. And a diploma which hangs in my room.

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tsRight

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Post Re: Brainwashing
on: May 23, 2013, 6:50 PM

Quote from lukshenkugel on May 23, 2013, 9:57 AM
I agree with Feigy123, there is major difference between brainwashing and trying to show the beauty of something and of course that all depends on the presentation. I went to a seminary that really showed the beauty of marrying a learning boy but no, you are not a total loser if you don't or can't. The financial burden on whoever it may fall (wife, parents etc) is not always a practical possibility and

a boy who doesn't have a decent source of money while in kolel and is forced to go to work should not be made to feel second rate.

There are ways to serve Hashem in the workplace as well. There are also many boys who are not cut out for full-time learning but are great Jews and would make amazing husbands and fathers. On that note, don't get me wrong, I think a learning boy or at least starting off a marriage with a boy in learning is a beautiful thing and would be the ideal way if we lived in an ideal world.

But, we don't live in an ideal world, and making people feel second rate for taking responsibility for their families needs is simply a disservice to ourselves.

Everyone has to do what they can- all Hashem expects us to do is our best and if we do, then we've succeeded.

I agree with Feigy and lukshenkugel too.
I think the main problem is that girls feel pressured into marrying a learning boy, and boys feeling pressured to stay in learning just so they can get a "good girl."
Someone said in another forum that a lot of times girls marry a learning boy but they can't really cope with the kollel lifestyle, and they end up pushing their sincere husbands out of learning. And that goes for the boys too - staying in learning so they can marry a good girl, but the good girl really wants a boy who loves learning lshaim shamayim and she is stuck with a bench-warmer.

By the seminaries and yeshivos pushing that everyone needs to live a kollel lifestyle, they are doing a massive disservice to all their sincere (not brainwashed) talmidos and talmidim.
And yes, there is definitely the concept of brainwashing in seminaries. I think the boys just listen to their Rabbanim because they feel close and the concept of daas torah. Girls by definition are much more spiritual/emotional and get carried away with things.

We had a yeshiva bachur over for shabbos and he is very smart, very spiritual, into kiruv...basically an incredible and deep guy. And he said that he thinks girls should not get married fresh out of seminary because they need to "come down to earth." I think a lot of boys probably feel this way. Like someone said above, "the boy asked her if she was brainwashed in seminary."
It's a known thing because it's true! Girls are brainwashed into believing that learning is the only way to go. But I think that it's not true of all seminaries. (Which is probably why we have girls on this website who don't believe that that is the only and best thing for everyone.)
The seminaries and Rabbanim have to realize what they are doing and change their ways.

basmelech

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Post Re: Brainwashing
on: May 23, 2013, 9:37 PM

Tryingtodowhatsright said, "...And he said that he thinks girls should not get married fresh out of seminary because they need to "come down to earth." "
Agree with that. After seminary girls do need time to adjust to real life, say give or take a few months, because seminary is a sort of "bubble" no working, raising families, and minimal daily responsibilities required.
As for brainwashing to get married to a learning boy, they definitely encourage it but they dont say its all or nothing. A person has got to have their priorities straight, that is the main thing. We are not in this world for iy"H 120 years to earn money as the end its not going to come with us past here. Its a means, and it is important to remember that always.

Avigail

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Post Re: Brainwashing
on: May 23, 2013, 11:43 PM

Quote from TryToDoWhatsRight on May 23, 2013, 6:50 PM

It's a known thing because it's true! Girls are brainwashed into believing that learning is the only way to go. But I think that it's not true of all seminaries. (Which is probably why we have girls on this website who don't believe that that is the only and best thing for everyone.)
The seminaries and Rabbanim have to realize what they are doing and change their ways.

trytodowhatsright can you give an example by what you mean by brainwashing?

life123

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Post Re: Brainwashing
on: May 24, 2013, 1:38 AM

In my sem and high school I NEVER had a teacher who said kollel is for everyone, perfect, or easy. I had a lot of teachers who stressed the importance of Torah, and did say kollel is good etc, but they always said that is can be hard, it isn't for everyone, you have to figure out if it is for you.

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tsRight

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Post Re: Brainwashing
on: May 24, 2013, 5:28 AM

Avigail: Like I said, I don't think that holds true of ALL seminaries, but you can't deny that there are some where the teachers and menaheles's tell the girls that learning is the best (i.e. other lifestyles are of lesser importance and not as chashuv) way to go. Impressionable and eager to grow young girls believe what their teachers tell them, and I think that a lot of people in this generation (you can disagree with me if you want) don't question the system or think for themselves. Example: you know thinkingBYgirl? Well, if all BY girls "thought," then why would she put her username as that??

Avigail

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Post Re: Brainwashing
on: May 24, 2013, 11:41 AM

Quote from TryToDoWhatsRight on May 24, 2013, 5:28 AM
you can't deny that there are some where the teachers and menaheles's tell the girls that learning is the best (i.e. other lifestyles are of lesser importance and not as chashuv) way to go.

Well isn't that true? Why would you consider that brainwashing?
Just because something is the best doesn't necessarily mean it's for everybody.

feigy123

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Post Re: Brainwashing
on: May 24, 2013, 12:01 PM

I don't think telling people something incorrect is "brainwashing". Brainwashing implies to me some sort of wrongful ways of convincing.

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tsRight

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Post Re: Brainwashing
on: May 24, 2013, 1:59 PM

brainwashing is giving over an idea or belief repetitively until the person who you are telling it to is convinced.
(you don't have to work hard to convince impressionable young girls of something - especially when u are telling them that the idea you're imparting is (insert positive adjective here.) And just as a disclaimer, again, I believe that learning is a good thing, just not for everyone.
And Avigail, its not true that a kollel lifestyle is better. If it was, then why would Zevulun get half of the schar for yissachar's learning in return for financial support? You need both. Each is important.
And if learning full time is the best, then surely gedolim like the chofetz chaim would have not had a store.
And imagine a kollel couple that has the worst middos and are really mean, selfish people who think the world owes them something (or in-laws). Then imagine a balabatish couple who are the most generous, kind people. Who do you think Hashem thinks is "better or best?"
Middos are more important than the occupation of your husband. This generation should be focusing on yirei shamayim more than whether the boy is a learner or earner. We are getting caught up on the wrong things. Like Dina in the story, she didnt want to go out with Donny because he was an earner, and imagine if he didnt have emotion withdrawal? he would have been wonderful for her - and let's say she didnt go out with him because he was getting a career?
So many girls feel like they're "sacrificing" what they want by going out with an earner. Who says an earner is worse?

Avigail

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Post Re: Brainwashing
on: May 24, 2013, 3:38 PM

And Avigail, its not true that a kollel lifestyle is better. If it was, then why would Zevulun get half of the schar for yissachar's learning in return for financial support? You need both. Each is important.

He gets half because he's enabling him to learn? Most people who work though are not Zevulan's a Zevulan means that they fully support the Yisacher sadly nobody seems to have any extra money no matter how much they make

And if learning full time is the best, then surely gedolim like the chofetz chaim would have not had a store.

I think his wife ran the store. Anyway it's the best if it's possible obviously if it's not possible they have to find some sort of income.

And imagine a kollel couple that has the worst middos and are really mean, selfish people who think the world owes them something (or in-laws). Then imagine a balabatish couple who are the most generous, kind people. Who do you think Hashem thinks is "better or best?"

Well if the Kollel fellow doesn't internalize the learning it's not worth anything. On a personal basis I think it's excepted that if someone has a choice to learn or work they should learn since that is a higher Madreiga. I am not in any way CH"V putting down bala batim many people (maybe most) have to work... Just trying to clarify the issues 😀

basmelech

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Post Re: Brainwashing
on: May 24, 2013, 3:41 PM

Agree with Avigail 🙂

atararox

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Post Re: Brainwashing
on: May 24, 2013, 4:14 PM

True that most zevuluns do not have extra money to give large donations to build shuls and whatnot but they ARE the ones paying full tuition without any breaks and giving maaser to all the organizations so they are enabling thousands of Jewish children to learn in comfortable environment and tons of chesed programs to happen.... Supporting yissachar x necessarily mean giving all your money to a kollel couple

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tsRight

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Post Re: Brainwashing
on: May 24, 2013, 4:45 PM

great point Atara!

basmelech

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Post Re: Brainwashing
on: May 24, 2013, 4:51 PM

A good person with a lev tov will do good in any situation whether they are a yissachar or zevulin. Those are the people that H-shem loves. 🙂

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tsRight

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Post Re: Brainwashing
on: May 24, 2013, 6:51 PM

And that's what matters...

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