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Author Topic: Segulas
Shaindy

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Post Segulas
on: April 30, 2013, 9:31 AM

Do you believe in Segulas?

patcha

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Post Re: Segulas
on: April 30, 2013, 12:45 PM

No.

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Lea

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Post Re: Segulas
on: April 30, 2013, 1:25 PM

No.

In many cases, they are outright defiance of halacha.

thinkingBY-
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Post Re: Segulas
on: April 30, 2013, 1:36 PM

"Believe in" segulas, as in "believe in" Hashem? Of course not. That's the biggest problem with segulos I think. People lose sight of why they're doing what they're doing. They start believing that giving tzedaka to kupat ha'eir or whatever is what is going to bring them their yeshua. It's almost like avoda zara.

Bracha613

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Post Re: Segulas
on: April 30, 2013, 2:27 PM

Of course I believe in Segulas. I don't get you all do you think these Segulas are just made up? Many of them have very early sources, and yes I give money to Kupat Hair also!

feigy123

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Post Re: Segulas
on: April 30, 2013, 5:04 PM

Quote from Bracha613 on April 30, 2013, 2:27 PM
I don't get you all do you think these Segulas are just made up?

Precisely.

I think I once wrote a (in my opinion) nice piece on this on this site.

Bracha613

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Post Re: Segulas
on: April 30, 2013, 8:54 PM

Ahem do you believe in Tefila Exchanges?!
Besides I'm sure you know that there are plenty of Segulas that come from reliable sources

patcha

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Post Re: Segulas
on: April 30, 2013, 9:01 PM

Bracha - I don't believe in segulas, I do believe in Hashem and that He answers prayers, but sometimes he says "not yet".
it's funny that on top of this page it says the following:

Mazel Tov!
Out of our 44 Tefillah Exchange partners, our 2nd girl just got engaged! ...And who do you think they were partners with? ...Each other!! May we continue davening for each other and sharing in each other's Simchos! To quote her words:
"What's so amazing is that the first girl I had been davening for got engaged first.. and Baruch Hashem here I am... So thank you so much for this wonderful opportunity to daven for others!! "

Bracha613

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Post Re: Segulas
on: April 30, 2013, 9:11 PM

Yeah that's where I got it from 馃榾

Sari

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Post Re: Segulas
on: April 30, 2013, 9:14 PM

Wow that really is amazing!

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tsRight

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Post Re: Segulas
on: May 1, 2013, 3:19 PM

There is a source for tefilla exchange.

It says that "if you daven for someone (sincerely obv) with the same problem as you, your problem will be solved first."
If you believe in it, it will work for you. If you don't think it is credible then obviously why would Hashem answer your tefillos?
There are dozens of stories of this happening. Just listen to shiurim and you'll find loads of them.

I find there are a lot of things like this. But I don't believe in stom segulas. They're narishkeit.
This is not a segula that is made up. There are reliable soources for it. (I don't remember the actual source but I definitely remember that there is one.)

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tsRight

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Post Re: Segulas
on: May 1, 2013, 3:23 PM

The best and I think only way for a person to find a shidduch is to daven daven daven and know that it is Hashem and only Hashem who gives you your bashert.
I don't even know why anyone whould want to try segulas?
It's like having the private number of the President and you need to ask him for a favor, and instead you write a letter to your congresman's office. It doesn't make sense! why would anyone do that??

feigy123

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Post Re: Segulas
on: May 1, 2013, 3:25 PM

Quote from TryToDoWhatsRight on May 1, 2013, 3:19 PM
There is a source for tefilla exchange.

It says that "if you daven for someone (sincerely obv) with the same problem as you, your problem will be solved first."
If you believe in it, it will work for you. If you don't think it is credible then obviously why would Hashem answer your tefillos?
There are dozens of stories of this happening. Just listen to shiurim and you'll find loads of them.

I find there are a lot of things like this. But I don't believe in stom segulas. They're narishkeit.
This is not a segula that is made up. There are reliable soources for it. (I don't remember the actual source but I definitely remember that there is one.)

Ok, but can you explain a theory for why that is? Because whenever I try to explain it, I get stuck with a theory that only works when you AREN'T doing it for the express purpose of being answered first.

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tsRight

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Post Re: Segulas
on: May 1, 2013, 3:33 PM

When you are facing an issue that causes you anguish (or not to be so dramatic, but something you really want resolved) what do you want to happen?
You want Hashem to answer you because you are the "most important person" and it's imperative that your problem gets fixed.

Whether we admit it or not, everyone is inherently selfish. The person we care the most about is ourselves.

By putting another person first and davening for their (same) problem to be fixed with the same intensity that we daven for our own, Hashem looks at us and says "see how special my childen are? They are going through things but they are asking that their friend should have their issue resolved!"

So that is the theory: you daven for someone else, and Hashem can't help but answer you first because now you deserve it.

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tsRight

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Post Re: Segulas
on: May 1, 2013, 4:06 PM

feigy123,
what do you think?

feigy123

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Post Re: Segulas
on: May 1, 2013, 4:52 PM

Quote from TryToDoWhatsRight on May 1, 2013, 3:33 PM
When you are facing an issue that causes you anguish (or not to be so dramatic, but something you really want resolved) what do you want to happen?
You want Hashem to answer you because you are the "most important person" and it's imperative that your problem gets fixed.

Whether we admit it or not, everyone is inherently selfish. The person we care the most about is ourselves.

By putting another person first and davening for their (same) problem to be fixed with the same intensity that we daven for our own, Hashem looks at us and says "see how special my childen are? They are going through things but they are asking that their friend should have their issue resolved!"

So that is the theory: you daven for someone else, and Hashem can't help but answer you first because now you deserve it.

Right. So then consider this:

Shprintzy really is very sad and hurt that she is not married yet. Getting married is a basic human need, and she is human and basically needs it. She davens and davens, and is still single.

Then she reads a chazal that says that if she davens for Feigy, that she--Shprintzy--will be answered first! So she quickly starts davening for Feigy, so that she can be answered first.

Is Shprintzy being selfless by davening for Feigy, or even more selfish by davening for Feigy?

I've been thinking about this for a while. Think about that, and give me your opinion, please.

iThink

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Post Re: Segulas
on: May 1, 2013, 5:23 PM

讛讜讗 谞注谞讛 转讞讬诇讛

Quote from feigy123 on May 1, 2013, 4:52 PM
Right. So then consider this:

Shprintzy really is very sad and hurt that she is not married yet. Getting married is a basic human need, and she is human and basically needs it. She davens and davens, and is still single.

Then she reads a chazal that says that if she davens for Feigy, that she--Shprintzy--will be answered first! So she quickly starts davening for Feigy, so that she can be answered first.

Is Shprintzy being selfless by davening for Feigy, or even more selfish by davening for Feigy?

Does this mean that if someone is davening for me for a specific yeshua as a zchus for themselves to get the same, that I'm put on a "waiting list" for this yeshua until they are zoche to it first?

Based on this chazal and Feigy123's post, this is exactly what it sounds like. I'm sure that things are not so simple in terms of the 讛讜讗 谞注谞讛 转讞讬诇讛 part. Any thoughts?

patcha

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Post Re: Segulas
on: May 1, 2013, 5:45 PM

But we can't know schar, like it says 砖讗讬谉 讗转讛 讬讜讚注 诪转谉 砖讻专谉 砖诇 诪爪讜讜转.

And in V'eschanan it says that tzadikim ask for matnas chinam, no conditions, because none of us really deserve anything good, but we daven to Hashem because we know in His great kindness He wants a connection with us.

Basically what I'm trying to say is I don't think we can figure out how segulos work, if they work, any more than we can figure out what our schar for a mitzva is.

iThink

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Post Re: Segulas
on: May 1, 2013, 5:54 PM

Quote from patcha on May 1, 2013, 5:45 PM
Basically what I'm trying to say is I don't think we can figure out how segulos work, if they work, any more than we can figure out what our schar for a mitzva is.

I don't know about that. The language of that chazal is pretty simple and clear, "he is anwered first".

patcha

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Post Re: Segulas
on: May 1, 2013, 5:55 PM

Quote from iThink on May 1, 2013, 5:54 PM
I don't know about that. The language of that chazal is pretty simple and clear, "he is anwered first".

How do you know when and how Hashem answers you? Unless you have nevua?

Hashem can respond with Yes, Not Yet, or No.

iThink

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Post Re: Segulas
on: May 1, 2013, 6:04 PM

Of course I can't know when and how Hashem answers me. But according to this chazal it seems pretty clear that a person davening for me who needs the same yeshua will be answered first. Plain and simple. Unless I'm missing something (which I hope I am).

iThink

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Post Re: Segulas
on: May 1, 2013, 6:06 PM

Oh, I think I get what you meant before. You're saying that I may be answered first, but the answer may not be the yeshua. Is that what you were trying to say?

patcha

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Post Re: Segulas
on: May 1, 2013, 6:08 PM

Quote from iThink on May 1, 2013, 6:06 PM
Oh, I think I get what you meant before. You're saying that I may be answered first, but the answer may not be the yeshua. Is that what you were trying to say?

Yes, exactly. 馃檪

iThink

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Post Re: Segulas
on: May 1, 2013, 6:11 PM

If that's the case (that the "answer" is not necessarily the yeshua), then what exactly is the "segula" here? From where I'm standing, it looks like I have two options:

1. Daven that I should get XYZ. If it's for my best that I should not get XYZ now, Hashem answers me with a no, or not yet.
2. Daven that my friend should get XYZ. If it's for my best that I should not get XYZ now, Hashem will answer me first with a no, or a not yet.

I'm definitely not getting the right meaning of this chazal. If anyone ever heard an explanation on the real meaning of this chazal, please share.

patcha

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Post Re: Segulas
on: May 1, 2013, 6:31 PM

Hashem likes it when we do chesed, and davening for others is spiritual chesed, and 注砖讛 专爪讜谞讜 讻专爪讜谞讱 讻讚讬 砖讬注砖讛 专爪讜谞讱 讻专爪讜谞讜. So it's definitely a good thing to do.

Does it guarantee a particular outcome? If it doesn't, and that makes it less worthwhile for a particular person, than that person wasn't doing it for the right reasons in the first place.

patcha

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Post Re: Segulas
on: May 1, 2013, 6:48 PM

Just want to add - by aseh retzoncha k'rtzono, I meant to say that if you do what Hashem wants, perhaps Hashem will do what you want. Maybe that's the source for this segula?

chaykie

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Post Re: Segulas
on: May 1, 2013, 6:57 PM

hey everyone, i just heard a shiur about this all like two weeks ago! you have to understand the theory behind it to understand why it works (when Hashem wills it of course). Let's take the mashal of a faucet. The faucet is the pipe that brings water from its source, into the sink. In order for the water to get into the sink, it's destination, it first has to go through/touch the faucet. Now, we all know that Tefilla is the kli through which bracha enters this world. So listen to this- our Tefilla is like the faucet- it brings bracha from the Source of all bracha (Hashem) into the faucet (person who is davening for her friend aka the kli) and then, only then, after it effects the faucet, the kli, can it continue to it's destination. isn't that beautiful???

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tsRight

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Post Re: Segulas
on: May 1, 2013, 7:23 PM

ok...I'm not sure I was as clear as I thought I was for my theory:

By putting another person first and davening for their (same) problem to be fixed with the same intensity that we daven for our own, Hashem looks at us and says "see how special my childen are? They are going through things but they are asking that their friend should have their issue resolved!"

So that is the theory: you daven for someone else, and Hashem can't help but answer you first because now you deserve it.

Feigy123: The example you described:

Shprintzy really is very sad and hurt that she is not married yet. Getting married is a basic human need, and she is human and basically needs it. She davens and davens, and is still single.

Then she reads a chazal that says that if she davens for Feigy, that she--Shprintzy--will be answered first! So she quickly starts davening for Feigy, SO that she can be answered first.

Is Shprintzy being selfless by davening for Feigy, or even more selfish by davening for Feigy?

As I explained, if a person is davening SINCERELY and with the SAME INTENSITY for their friend in need as if they are davening for themselves - with no ulterior motive, then Hashem will answer their tefillos first. (Again, if they believe that this chazal is real and they are doing it sincerely)

iThink: that's a very important question.

Does this mean that if someone is davening for me for a specific yeshua as a zchus for themselves to get the same, that I'm put on a "waiting list" for this yeshua until they are zoche to it first?

I think the answer is that you shouldn't be thinking, worrying and/or relying about what another person's tefillos are doing for you. Everyone is judged on their own merits and there is a Master Plan.

feigy123

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Post Re: Segulas
on: May 1, 2013, 8:57 PM

Right.But I'm asking that if they believe this chazal, and are doing it sincerely to get the reward that this chazal promises, doesn't that by definition mean that they are doing it insincerely? Because they are doing it to get the prize and not to selflessly help the other person?

Am I making sense?

patcha

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Post Re: Segulas
on: May 1, 2013, 10:31 PM

Feigy: You always make sense. 馃檪

It's a paradox that shows that this segula cannot work the way it is popularly understood to work.

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tsRight

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Post Re: Segulas
on: May 1, 2013, 10:39 PM

By "sincerely," I mean they are only davening to sincerely help their friend in need. They are concerned with the other person's issue.
They don't even care about their own need in this respect. it's almost like a "coincidence" that they have the same problem. Their only concern is that their friend should not be going through tzaros.

like you just said

they are doing it sincerely to get the reward that this chazal promises, doesn't that by definition mean that they are doing it insincerely? Because they are doing it to get the prize and not to selflessly help the other person?

you're correct; it is insincerity to do it for the reward.
by

"they are doing it sincerely to get the reward"

do you mean they DO care about their friend, and that is one reason why they are "sincerely" davening for her, but their primary reason (even if they don't realize it themselves) is to get the reward and their own issue resolved? To them, that is sincere davening for their friend. They care about her/him. But that's not the real reason why they want to do this. They're hoping they'll get something out of this too.

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tsRight

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Post Re: Segulas
on: May 1, 2013, 10:49 PM

If they are truly sincerely davening for their friend, in all the respects of this theory, then they DESERVE to have their tefilos answered first because they are being so selfless.
The reason why this segula doesn't work for so many people is because most people aren't actually on this level. I know that seems mean but that's the fact. This girl up above who got engaged, she said

"What's so amazing is that the first girl I had been davening for got engaged first.. and Baruch Hashem here I am... So thank you so much for this wonderful opportunity to daven for others!! "

you hear the word "amazing"? amaze by dictionary definition is an expression of surprise.
She was "surprised" that this girl got engaged (first).
She wasn't expecting this reward to happen for her. it was a "coincidence" that they both were davening for each other and both got engaged. Not really...it was the reward that chazal talks about.
She was davening not for personal gain of hoping to get engaged she, and I quote

So thank you so much for this wonderful opportunity to daven for others!!

was davening for the "opportunity" to help others.
She DESERVED the reward that chazal talks about because she was being selfless.

pray today

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Post Re: Segulas
on: May 1, 2013, 10:50 PM

You guys are so funny how can you doubt if it works when you have the proof right before your eyes 44 girls and the 1st two were partners.
I'm not a mathematician but I imagine the chances of that happening by chance are quite slim!!
Does anyone know how to figure out what the chance of that happening is?

patcha

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Post Re: Segulas
on: May 1, 2013, 10:58 PM

pray today: It's actually very likely. there's something called the "birthday paradox" that is similar. even assuming that the first two aren't in any way advantaged.

pray today

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Post Re: Segulas
on: May 1, 2013, 11:11 PM

Can you explain?

feigy123

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Post Re: Segulas
on: May 1, 2013, 11:20 PM

Oh I'm so confused. I'm going home to figure this all out. (the longest pesach)

I donno what the birthday paradox is, but I do know that when moshe was on har sinai, on the 40th day, there was a cloud that looked like his funeral bier. And the chances of that happening by chance are really really slim. And it wasn't by chance; it was the satan.

patcha

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Post Re: Segulas
on: May 1, 2013, 11:26 PM

Quote from pray today on May 1, 2013, 11:11 PM
Can you explain?

I'm too tired to do it justice. It's explained well here.http://betterexplained.com/articles/understanding-the-birthday-paradox/

The details aren't really important. My point was more that in a randomly selected group, the probability of a specific particular event is higher than you expect. Especially in a group that is dating, and especially considering that the likelihood of 2 girls in a group of 44 getting engaged over a period of a few months intuitively reaches 100%.

patcha

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Post Re: Segulas
on: May 1, 2013, 11:29 PM

Quote from feigy123 on May 1, 2013, 11:20 PM
I donno what the birthday paradox is, but I do know that when moshe was on har sinai, on the 40th day, there was a cloud that looked like his funeral bier. And the chances of that happening by chance are really really slim. And it wasn't by chance; it was the satan.

very well said

pray today

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Post Re: Segulas
on: May 1, 2013, 11:37 PM

What a horrible thing to say 馃槨 you think it's the satan that got her engaged?

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Post Re: Segulas
on: May 1, 2013, 11:38 PM

Where's thinkingbygirl? I wish we could have her input...

patcha

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Post Re: Segulas
on: May 1, 2013, 11:41 PM

pray today: that's not what feigy's saying at all, she's explaining that we can't base our belief on things like tihs. she can say it better so I won't try.

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tsRight

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Post Re: Segulas
on: May 1, 2013, 11:41 PM

she's giving an example that basically says that if something doesn't look like it happened by chance, it didn't.

feigy123

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Post Re: Segulas
on: May 1, 2013, 11:51 PM

Quote from pray today on May 1, 2013, 11:37 PM
What a horrible thing to say 馃槨 you think it's the satan that got her engaged?

Yeah, that does sound kinda horrible.

But I guess I did say it.

pray today

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Post Re: Segulas
on: May 1, 2013, 11:56 PM

What does that mean????? 馃槨 馃槨 馃槨 馃槨 馃槨 馃槨 馃槨 馃槨 馃槨 馃槨

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tsRight

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Post Re: Segulas
on: May 1, 2013, 11:58 PM

you think the satan got her engaged? that's like christianity. thinking that the satan has an equal level of power to Hashem. Only Hashem would do a positive thing like sending someone their bashert.

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